Brand new LS3 pinging - Pontiac G8 Forum: G8 Forums - G8Board.com
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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Brand new LS3 pinging

Hello again,

So, the crate GMPP LS3 I put in my GT is pinging at and near WOT. Pinging pretty badly and constantly at WOT. It happens regardless of what brand gas I use (91 octane). I know Las Vegas gas sucks but it can't be just the gas.

The motor is stock from the factory and "brand new", except for roto-fab CAI and LS7 MAF. The dealer that supplied the motor also supplied a "factory" tune with the correct MAF tables. My installer says that he can't ensure that the 2 yr GMPP warranty will be good if I start tuning it.

So... Any ideas on what's causing the pinging?

Computer is original from the G8 GT.

I'm going to swap out the MAF since its under $60, and Patrick G once mentioned that the MAF output looked strange.
Spark plugs are old but look ok, but... worn plugs causing WOT pinging?
I've gone over the intake and had to sand out manufacturing defects that could have been causing extra air to enter the intake tubing at the connecting points (horrible quality control by roto-fab) so the intake shouldn't be leaking air after the MAF. I did put in a honeycomb screen prior to the MAF after Patrick G's comment about odd MAF output.

Any other ideas?

The motor performs as expected otherwise. Regular drivability at part throttle is normal. Idle is normal. I'm getting normal MPG, around 16 in city-only driving, 18 in mixed driving, and up to 24 in freeway-only driving.

The installer's only offered option is to put the stock intake box back on and re-tune with original MAF, then troubleshoot from there. I'm hoping someone has an idea what else could be causing this. My suspicion is that the supplied tune is overly aggressive and not quite a direct translation of an original GXP/LS3 tune, since I would suspect that most of these motors go into camaros with different intake and exhaust setups.

Thanks in advance!

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E

Last edited by flensr; 04-16-2017 at 11:59 AM.
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 05:09 PM
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not knowing the engine specs of the ls3 crate motor off hand but it sounds like the ls3 motor might have more compression, that the timing might be advanced to much,, you need to get some logs on it to see what its doing ,, with out that you will be shooting in the dark,,, also a wide band would be part you need to see what the afr is currently at,, it could be that its lean causing pinging ,,,

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 02:15 PM
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Did you check if it is a strong or weak signal MAF? The attached photo shows were to look. GM had 2 suppliers for the part. If you have a single letter there. It's weak. Letter and number it's the better model. This could be the source of knock that a tune would be hard to handle

'09 SRM GT. VCM Intake, Saxonpc MAF Screen 5:1, Cortex,1.85 Rockers/105# Springs, JBA shorty's, Solo H/F Cats, Solo Mach Balanced. BMR Sway bars, Superpro strut mounts, Whiteline Rear Subframe Bushing, Mevotech arms. PPV struts/shocks, Tein Springs. MPSS Tires
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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I'll check the number code when I pull it out and replace it, thanks. New sensor should be here tomorrow.

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 01:33 PM
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Without seeing the tune, it's hard to say. I would suspect that to be a tune issue though. We did a crate motor LS3 swap on a buddies car with the LS3/7 style MAF, VR, and headers, and I have had no trouble tuning it with no PING.

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 01:43 PM
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Just so you know, GM does not have a LS3 engine calibration that is not VIN specific. Sounds like the dealer flashed it with aftermarket software and needs to retune the ECM.

So if the ECM is flashed as a 6.0L and your running a 6.2L engine with higher compression that is the reason for the pining. The engine is running lean.

-Greg

1998 Pontiac Grand Prix - 11.24 @ 121
2009.5 G8 GT (Liquid Red)
GXP fascia conversion, GXP diffuser

2009 GXP M6 (MSM) #405 586rwhp/495tq

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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It's supposed to be a GXP tune converted for GT computer, with LS7 MAF table since thats how they come nowadays.

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 02:27 PM
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Sounds like it needs a custom tune. Or you have a weak fuel pump.

PBM G8 GXP M6-Self flex fuel tune,OBX LTs, Kooks A/B, Monster Stg 3 clutch, LSA S/C, cam, fuel system, stock block and stock heads.
Best e.t 10.81/ best mph 135 Half Mile: 166.9 mph
2007 TBSS-Self tune, bolt ons 13.06@106.7, 2,200 D.A
1991 GMC Syclone- Self tune/catback 12.8@104, 4,200ft D.A
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STAGEUP View Post
Sounds like it needs a custom tune. Or you have a weak fuel pump.
I'm fairly sure it needs a tune.

That said, Patrick G and I went back and forth for a year trying to eliminate detonation on what should have been a simple LS9 cam DOD delete tune, and we gave up when it became clear that the motor was having lifter failure again. So maybe the MAF was bad or something else was wrong?

I'm going to do what I can to make sure the installation is as clean/correct as I can get it (no intake air leaks, swapped out MAF today, etc), maybe I'll call the dealer who sourced the motor to make sure they didn't supply a 93 octane tune instead of 91 octane, and then after the 2 yr warranty is up I'll see if Patrick G can have another go at it.

If I can't get it dialed in, I might need a local tuner to dyno tune it with wideband, the whole bit, to figure out what's wrong with it.

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:51 AM Thread Starter
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Knock knock...

New MAF, no change. Both old and new MAF were from the "good" production runs.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ping.jpg (92.2 KB, 13 views)

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:21 AM
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So it is not running on the PAT g tune but the dealer flash ?

I don't think the dealer would even have the right file to flash in for you since the GT did not come with the ls3/ls7 maf.
Unless they are trying to flash in a LS3 file but im not sure how that would work since other things are different.


If you dont want to tune the car due to warranty issues (they really wouldnt know anyways ), Then putting the stock maf is your best option


If it was me Id get a custom tune by your local LSx shop

Tvs1900 and all badges removed so people really call it a GTO
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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Correct, it's on the dealer flash.

The story I got is that since LS3 is OEM replacement for GXP and the "current" MAF design is LS7 card MAF, and they support putting the crate LS3 into older cars, there is an "official" LS3 flash for the G8 based on the GXP tune that has the LS7 MAF tables.


The word I just got is that if I want it worked on under warranty and don't want to pay the installer for an approved tune, I'll have to put the intake back to stock, remove the catch can, and tow it to a dealer for a re-flash. Then they can start troubleshooting.

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flensr View Post
Correct, it's on the dealer flash.

The story I got is that since LS3 is OEM replacement for GXP and the "current" MAF design is LS7 card MAF, and they support putting the crate LS3 into older cars, there is an "official" LS3 flash for the G8 based on the GXP tune that has the LS7 MAF tables.


The word I just got is that if I want it worked on under warranty and don't want to pay the installer for an approved tune, I'll have to put the intake back to stock, remove the catch can, and tow it to a dealer for a re-flash. Then they can start troubleshooting.

They will not know it was tuned, but I understand some people don't want to risk it.
Im pretty skeptical on what the dealer has on hand for custom tunes. Im willing to bet that's the issue.


Did they install the ls3 engine under warranty or did you pay for it ?

Tvs1900 and all badges removed so people really call it a GTO
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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I paid for the install. Original motor had DOD lifter failure just after powertrain warranty expired, and the DOD delete / cam job I had done was done incorrectly so the lifters and cam ate each other and the bearings. I opted for a crate LS3 instead of a teardown/rebuild of the original block, in part to get the 2 yr GM warranty on the crate motor.

I can't afford another motor swap at this point. If I had another $10k sitting in the bank then I'd be fine messing with it but I was close to trading it in for a civic for no reason other than I can't afford another motor and I NEED a daily driver that can haul 3 kids too.

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:46 AM
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Bring it over to AZ, I'll fix it for ya.

PBM G8 GXP M6-Self flex fuel tune,OBX LTs, Kooks A/B, Monster Stg 3 clutch, LSA S/C, cam, fuel system, stock block and stock heads.
Best e.t 10.81/ best mph 135 Half Mile: 166.9 mph
2007 TBSS-Self tune, bolt ons 13.06@106.7, 2,200 D.A
1991 GMC Syclone- Self tune/catback 12.8@104, 4,200ft D.A
2002 Bonneville SSEi- Self tune, 3.4" pulley, FWI. The beater
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flensr View Post
I paid for the install. Original motor had DOD lifter failure just after powertrain warranty expired, and the DOD delete / cam job I had done was done incorrectly so the lifters and cam ate each other and the bearings. I opted for a crate LS3 instead of a teardown/rebuild of the original block, in part to get the 2 yr GM warranty on the crate motor.

I can't afford another motor swap at this point. If I had another $10k sitting in the bank then I'd be fine messing with it but I was close to trading it in for a civic for no reason other than I can't afford another motor and I NEED a daily driver that can haul 3 kids too.
Wow sorry to hear about the original failure, what did they do wrong ?


Sounds like you know what you need to do. At your near stock power level a stock MAF is fine anyways.

Tvs1900 and all badges removed so people really call it a GTO
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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I think the DOD delete and LS9 cam install went bad because I used upgraded double springs on an LS9 cam, and either the builder got the wrong length pushrods or he just set preload way wrong. Also, the guy who tore it down 2 years later said that none of the parts that were in there were what I paid for. I paid for BTR springs, but BTR says that the springs and clips were not genuine BTR. Same for pushrods, gaskets, etc. Cam bolts were re-used and glued in, that sort of thing. Also preloads were different for each valve. Not only that, the cam bearing was elongated down so the lifters were basically shoving the cam down continuously and the cam bearings were probably touching down. I think it only kept running because i was using mobil 1 which slowed down the rate of damage and kept it quiet until the damage had progressed very far along. A couple of lifters were totally wrecked and a few lobes on the cam were ground down quite badly.

The guy who did the bad DOD delete job pretty much said that after 2 years and "who knows what rpm you took it to", he felt no responsibility. No way to prove that he cheated me on the parts either.

Right now the 2 things keeping me from returning the intake to stock are a lack of time, and no assurance that it'll actually help anyhow. A roto-fab by itself shouldn't make the motor ping over 4000 rpm at WOT.

2009 Liquid Red G8 GT, Premium
CPP LS3 Crate Motor, Roto-fab CAI, LS7 MAF w/ 100mm 1:4 honeycomb, Catch Can, Custom Patrick G TCM Tune
FE3 struts/shocks, BMR poly strut bushings
Subwoofer polarity mod and sub amp gain
My other ride is an F-15E
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:27 PM
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Like I said GM does not have a flash for this engine so it is either A: a custom tune, or B the stock GT calibration.

The stock GT calibration would have DOD active unless it was somehow disabled with a hand held unit.

GM tools and system will not allow a dealer to flash an ECM with out putting in a VIN. So there is no way to "trick" the GM system to flash a GXP file into your ECM.

Someone somewhere is giving you a line or you are misunderstanding.

If your new LS3 dies and GM inspects for warranty it will get denied because of the obvious detonation it was seeing.
-Greg
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrace19 View Post
Like I said GM does not have a flash for this engine so it is either A: a custom tune, or B the stock GT calibration.

The stock GT calibration would have DOD active unless it was somehow disabled with a hand held unit.

GM tools and system will not allow a dealer to flash an ECM with out putting in a VIN. So there is no way to "trick" the GM system to flash a GXP file into your ECM.

Someone somewhere is giving you a line or you are misunderstanding.


If your new LS3 dies and GM inspects for warranty it will get denied because of the obvious detonation it was seeing.
-Greg
^^^^Well put

Quote:
Originally Posted by flensr View Post
I think the DOD delete and LS9 cam install went bad because I used upgraded double springs on an LS9 cam, and either the builder got the wrong length pushrods or he just set preload way wrong. Also, the guy who tore it down 2 years later said that none of the parts that were in there were what I paid for. I paid for BTR springs, but BTR says that the springs and clips were not genuine BTR. Same for pushrods, gaskets, etc. Cam bolts were re-used and glued in, that sort of thing. Also preloads were different for each valve. Not only that, the cam bearing was elongated down so the lifters were basically shoving the cam down continuously and the cam bearings were probably touching down. I think it only kept running because i was using mobil 1 which slowed down the rate of damage and kept it quiet until the damage had progressed very far along. A couple of lifters were totally wrecked and a few lobes on the cam were ground down quite badly.

The guy who did the bad DOD delete job pretty much said that after 2 years and "who knows what rpm you took it to", he felt no responsibility. No way to prove that he cheated me on the parts either.

Right now the 2 things keeping me from returning the intake to stock are a lack of time, and no assurance that it'll actually help anyhow. A roto-fab by itself shouldn't make the motor ping over 4000 rpm at WOT.
Sorry to hear about the damage.
The rotofab is not the issue, you're probelm is the the ls7 maf and the tune aka "flash" as the dealer calls it.

You can try the stock maf with the rotofab but like posted above if they are flashing a normal g8 tune it won't work

Tvs1900 and all badges removed so people really call it a GTO

Last edited by maxspeed96ct; 04-21-2017 at 04:54 AM.
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 07:51 PM
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you cant keep driving it with it rattling the pistons,, you have to get it tuned or find some one with hp tuners or efi live to do a scan/log,, this will help you nail the issue down ,, if you go to the dyno and start with some light pulls and see what the afr is reading whats commanded ,work from there,, check knock sensor reading ,,, could be that its not pulling the timing out if it is knocking/pinging ,,, defiantly a few areas to start with ,,, the dealer will not know whats been changed ,also the dealer will just flash it with files,,,they wont change anything in the tune file because of liability of damaged motor

kook 1 7/8 long tubes, ls3 cam,dod delete,tuning school transmission tune,cai,corsa exhaust,lowered 1",staggered wheel set 19x8.5 19x9.5 breyton gts av,3.45 gear ,BMR rear control arm/w poly bushings
12.86 @ 109.00
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