http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28846202

Read it and understand that this will now allow not just 16 states banding together to adopt CARB as their rules, but that in fact now each and every state will be allowed to adopt DIFFERENT emissions standards as long as they equal or exceed the EPA regs. If Detroit is to survive then this and next round of bailouts will not be nearly enough. Even teh wholesale importation fo Fiats rebadged as Dodges won't be enough for Chrysler. GM has already introduced and released(except for Volt which is introduced only) every high mileage vehicle they have been working on. Buy your G8's while you can and hope that your own state does not mandate their actual removal from the highway.

"Let me be clear: Our goal is not to further burden an already struggling industry," Obama said at the White House. "It is to help America's automakers prepare for the future."

I fail to see how having a dozen or more different emissions standards is actually HELPING the Big Three. If they're smart, they'll just engineer to meet California's standards and they should be good for everywhere else.

Say goodbye to one more freedom of choice.:(

I wonder if that 6 billion pound Cadillac SUV limo they cart him around in is CARB friendly

I fail to see how having a dozen or more different emissions standards is actually HELPING the Big Three. If they're smart, they'll just engineer to meet California's standards and they should be good for everywhere else.

Say goodbye to one more freedom of choice.:(
Yes, most states involved in this are too lazy to write anything themselves and will in lockstep adopt the newest and most stringent CARB rules - but the door has been left open for them to do what they please. Think of it like minimum wage. There is a Fed minimum, each state can enact their own higher level but there is no limit on how high that can be.
I wonder if that 6 billion pound Cadillac SUV limo they cart him around in is CARB friendly
No more so than the 6,000# black Suburbans in front of and behind said limo. You do know there is also at least one decoy.

Deregulation and keeping the government out of our lives and out of businesses is the only way to save the auto industry and the country.

If he wants to say "Let me be clear: Our goal is not to further burden an already struggling industry," Then keep your stupid hands off and let them do what they think is best. If the auto industry was allowed to make the cars we want and not the cars the government want/thinks we need they would be doing fine.

I'm not surprised. After November 4th....I expected this.

no one could ever say it better than Milton Friedman himself

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

no one could ever say it better than Milton Friedman himself

Wow, that was an excellent quote.

the begining of the end !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a question: what's cheaper, manufacturing cars to meet the lowest common denominator, or simply not selling cars in states with higher emissions standards? How funny would it be if GM just said: you know what California, if you want to be so damn anal you can retrofit our cars to meet your state standards, otherwise, we just won't sell them there. LOL I guess it wouldn't be funny if you lived in California. :wink2:

I agree with CodeJockey.

"Let me be clear: Our goal is not to further burden an already struggling industry," Obama said at the White House. "It is to help America's automakers prepare for the future."
I fail to see how having a dozen or more different emissions standards is actually HELPING the Big Three. If they're smart, they'll just engineer to meet California's standards and they should be good for everywhere else.
Say goodbye to one more freedom of choice.:(
...

"Let me be clear: Our goal is not to further burden individuals struggling with faith," the Grand Inquisitor said. "It is to help souls prepare for the future."

Different standards = bad idea. What if a state enacts standards tougher than California's?
Where does the bar stop????

Different standards = bad idea. What if a state enacts standards tougher than California's?
Where does the bar stop????

I like to think that states are smarter than the federal government. Less "mob" mentality usually leads to much sounder decision making.

I like to think that states are smarter than the federal government. Less "mob" mentality usually leads to much sounder decision making.

I have to disagree. I worked in power-plant emissions monitoring for a while. While any one state's requirements may not be horrible by itself, dealing with the difference from one state to the next is a huge pain. Trying to create one solution to satisfy everyone could simply be impossible. One state may care more about CO2, another may care more about CO, yet another may care more about NOx, hydrocarbons, etc.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/srg963/Thread%20Pictures/threadsucksballs.jpg

I wonder if that 6 billion pound Cadillac SUV limo they cart him around in is CARB friendly

Not a chance in hell. And you know it isn't very fuel efficient. I want to see one of the limo drivers filling up with E85.

I'm not surprised. After November 4th....I expected this.

I expected a slap in the face. This is a kick in the shin. Just for reference, a kick in the balls move would have been to mandate 100% electric cars by next week.

Here's a question: what's cheaper, manufacturing cars to meet the lowest common denominator, or simply not selling cars in states with higher emissions standards? How funny would it be if GM just said: you know what California, if you want to be so damn anal you can retrofit our cars to meet your state standards, otherwise, we just won't sell them there. LOL I guess it wouldn't be funny if you lived in California. :wink2:

And here is where the comment "Our goal is not to further burden an already struggling industry" falls through the cracks. If a car company decided not to sell in a state with stadards more strict than what they build, then they lose out on potential sales. The more populated the state, the more potential sales are lost. Then where will GM be? Not to be outdone, the automakers have to have their vehicles compliant with the strictest state by a certain date. Maybe the state sets a regulation that is truly unreachable (by all automakers, not just GM), then no cars get sold. It will cost money to meet the standards while at the same time not selling any cars & earning any profits.

I think what's more likely is that states will compete against each other.

"hey GM, we'll lower our standards if you sell your cars for less in our state"

free market at work baby!

I think what's more likely is that states will compete against each other.

"hey GM, we'll lower our standards if you sell your cars for less in our state"

free market at work baby!

I'll believe that when I see it.

I'll believe that when I see it.

It'll happen so long as the federal government doesn't interfere. Of course you know they will.

Car sales are a HUGE source of tax revenue for state governments. It is in their absolute best interest for car companies to sell as many cars as possible in their state.

The fed of course doesn't give two ****s about what's good for state governments.

I'm not surprised. After November 4th....I expected this.

Amen....the car hating eco-freaks are in control of Congress. Even the UAW can't easily get democrat votes. If the GOP was smart (they aren't), they would make a pitch for the union vote, because the dems have the UAW scheduled for extinction

I think what's more likely is that states will compete against each other.

"hey GM, we'll lower our standards if you sell your cars for less in our state"

free market at work baby!

Read the first post. CANNOT happen. Standards must be higher to be different from the Fed standard. Nutcase leftist stated like Vermont will jack up standards...GM may have to decide whether it is worth it to sell cars in VErmont.

Frickin ought to be only one national standard.

But Obama had to kiss the ecofreaks arse

"But a spokesman for California's Air Resources Board clarified that California is the only state allowed to seek waivers under the Clean Air Act, and that other states may only follow exactly what California enacts when it is granted a waiver."

I don't think what has been done so far has revoke the Clean Air Act provisions. So still only 2 standards, Fed & Cali. Not saying that won't change in the future...

Can someone please explain to me how it is even remotely possible for car companies to survive when there is the possibility that they will have to make 50 type of vehicles of each model. I live in "wonderful" California, and these dumb ass Dems have ruined this state and will now ruin the US. It is time to buy a 60's era car, and pray to God that they don't mess with them.

So if this actually goes through this means possibly all drag racing tracks would be shutdown... definitely something to ponder, and there goes more jobs :/

Drag racing will never die.

Your car only has to be up to emissions when you bring it in to be tested. The rest of the year or two years, it can be completely illegal.

I don't care what kind of system my state comes up with, it will not stop me from doing what I want to do to my car.

"But a spokesman for California's Air Resources Board clarified that California is the only state allowed to seek waivers under the Clean Air Act, and that other states may only follow exactly what California enacts when it is granted a waiver."

I don't think what has been done so far has revoke the Clean Air Act provisions. So still only 2 standards, Fed & Cali. Not saying that won't change in the future...

A little history lesson. Over the last 5 or so years certain states, including NY and MI, MA, VT and now PA (and others) have adopted the actual CARB standard or something inbetween it and Fed standard. Until GM and the others actually caught up with the paperwork and certified the vehicles to be 50-state certified there were at a minimum 3 emissions RPOs from which to choose.

If California continues to be the toughest allowable standards you still can end up with some states not adopting the complete CARB package but, by this reversal, will be allowed to set their own limits, maybe not tougher than CA, but certainly tougher than EPA - and there is where we end up with more than 2 standards. Sure, if GM meets teh CARB criteria they would be allowed to sell in all 50 states, but what of teh cars that don't quite meet the standard -those could still be sold, just not in CA or states using teh CA standard.

The problem is you have local officials lacking in certain scientific backgrounds setting the standards for their locale based on pamphlets from non-scientific groups. Want an example? Trying to get a tires to energy power plant approved that will be the cleanest ever built and far far cleaner than the paper mill that uised to sit on the property around here the company is facing grassroots oposition that is grounded on one pronciple - which is "not in my front yard". That's it, and the kicker is that the local spearheading org against cleaning up the environment (finding a viable use for old tires that is better than leaving them pile up) has its strings being pulled by a much larger anti-progress org whose mission is to ban all but solar power for electricity.

It seems to me to be a bit of an overstatement to call this a free market issue. However, to comment about that, resources must be managed to some degree in any economy. We have an example of what it is like for a civilization to run out of resources and left without options: Easter Island.

Anyway, I'm in CA. I understand why CA wants the higher standards. That's because we are worse offenders, with something like 5 cars for every man, woman and child. ;) Seriously though, the clean air efforts of CA and the EPA have improved air quality here over the past couple of decades. The difference is noticable. Anyone remember how hard it was to breathe during LA heatwaves even just 15 years ago?

That said, this is about CA's waiver and no one else's. As far as I have seen, the order from the Pres only makes the EPA reconsider CA's waiver request. It does not put CA's waiver into effect. So, let's see what the EPA does.

Drag racing will never die.

Your car only has to be up to emissions when you bring it in to be tested. The rest of the year or two years, it can be completely illegal.

Wrong -researclh OBDIII-It is coming. CARB has a pilot program
on it now. 4-5 years?

I work with large natural gas engines from 26-4000 hp and let me tell you how much of a pain in the arse it is to deal with every state and their tiddly different rules. Depends on who took the rule maker to lunch the most often will determine how the rules are made. Another problem is keeping up with all the BS and their constant changes. It takes a consultant (literally) to set around on his arse to interpret every states tweaks. (this is obamas new idea of generating jobs)

the funny thing is the rules force me around most non attainment areas in SE Texas like houston to take the nastiest dirty burn engines and put catalyst on them for the local limits. The most modern engines will not work due to they are not clean enough.
The catalyst companies are going to come out of the next 4 years like bandits.

You guys are going over board. either you don't know how to read or the article is in correct.

Obama asked the EPA to review Calf. requests to see if it was practable.

This is not practable.

You guys are going over board. either you don't know how to read or the article is in correct.

Obama asked the EPA to review Calf. requests to see if it was practable.

This is not practable.

With the appointments he has made to the EPA, they will find the rules to be practical. We will see...................

Remember, he promised "change." There is a new sheriff in town, and this is a perfect way for him to leave his mark.

GTO_04

you non cali guys are funny. You think the only way to make power involves something illegal. smog is not hard to pass the thing that fail alot of people is the evap test on your 20 year old dryrotten hose. There is plenty of high horse power tpi, LT1 and LS1 passing smog with no problem. Plus if you have money you buy new cars like a g8, you don't have to smog for 6 years you can gut all the cats you want and then sell it after you pay it off. Also take the G8, its passes cali state mandate by flying colors. I think you guys are confusing two issues this will not stop the sell of cars to a state as all new cars burn so clean that they are way above smog limits. What is killing the Detriot three from making more cars like the G8 is Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE). Thats what kills horsepower cars from making it into the show room not cali smog laws. Unless you have a 76 F150 you just love then ok maybe you should sweat other then that keep your car in good tune and you will pass smog. And I'm sorry to admit this guys but the G8 is not going to save GM and the G8ST would not had helped either those are cars Americans wants but how many people buy what they want. People buy what they need four cylinder camrys and malibus. Hence why a car as good as the G8 has sales that suck so bad. Trust me I work with plenty of people that love my car but the V8 scares them (15mpg/too much power) (even with T/C on in the rain a g8 gets sideways for a few seconds before corrected thats scares people) but back to the point. So if you want to keep stuff like G8's in your stable of choices you need to thank every one you see driving anything with 4 cylinder motor coming from Gm cause if the malibu/G6 was a turd you will not have G8's. SO pray the new Chevy cruze can sell what the cobalt/G5 couldn't and you might see more v8's here.

you non cali guys are funny. You think the only way to make power involves something illegal. smog is not hard to pass the thing that fail alot of people is the evap test on your 20 year old dryrotten hose. There is plenty of high horse power tpi, LT1 and LS1 passing smog with no problem. Plus if you have money you buy new cars like a g8, you don't have to smog for 6 years you can gut all the cats you want and then sell it after you pay it off. Also take the G8, its passes cali state mandate by flying colors. I think you guys are confusing two issues this will not stop the sell of cars to a state as all new cars burn so clean that they are way above smog limits. What is killing the Detriot three from making more cars like the G8 is Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE). Thats what kills horsepower cars from making it into the show room not cali smog laws. Unless you have a 76 F150 you just love then ok maybe you should sweat other then that keep your car in good tune and you will pass smog. And I'm sorry to admit this guys but the G8 is not going to save GM and the G8ST would not had helped either those are cars Americans wants but how many people buy what they want. People buy what they need four cylinder camrys and malibus. Hence why a car as good as the G8 has sales that suck so bad. Trust me I work with plenty of people that love my car but the V8 scares them (15mpg/too much power) (even with T/C on in the rain a g8 gets sideways for a few seconds before corrected thats scares people) but back to the point. So if you want to keep stuff like G8's in your stable of choices you need to thank every one you see driving anything with 4 cylinder motor coming from Gm cause if the malibu/G6 was a turd you will not have G8's. SO pray the new Chevy cruze can sell what the cobalt/G5 couldn't and you might see more v8's here.

You only get 15MPG?:(

Read this to see where Hussain is coming from....

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/12/obama-climate-czar-has-socialist-ties/

See this to see how stupid the whole thing is:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/30/autoline-on-autoblog-with-john-mcelroy/#continued

Just leave the market alone and we will buy the cars...note the G8s and trucks not flying off the lot...that are best for us and not hurt the auto makers at the same time...even Honda and Toyota are in litigation with Calf...

This whole green house gas, co2, global warming etc is a power/money grab, some for money and some for power and world gov,,,(see first link)...buy what you want now and take care of it...

I'm not against a cleaner environment, but I have always been against the cleanest countries having to become marginally cleaner at a price that instead would bring the worst offending countries like India and China at least up to the level of where we were 20-30 years ago. Keep the developed worlds on a scheduled improvement in mpg, but also demand that the countries we buy 90% of our goods and services from catch up.

Do you realize how much pollution comes from idling container ships waiting in port? http://www.coalitionforcleanair.org/alerts/newsflash/State-Air-Board-Votes-Unanimously-to-Clean-Up-Ships-12-6-07.html

you non cali guys are funny. You think the only way to make power involves something illegal.

Right now only the Prius gets better mileage than California's limits requires (per the press, typically CAFE limits are based on old mileage tests, not the new adjusted ones).

So how many Prius's (aka Prii) does GM have to sell to sell a $35K G8? I am thinking they will save the MPG credits for Cadillacs and such.

Right now only the Prius gets better mileage than California's limits requires (per the press, typically CAFE limits are based on old mileage tests, not the new adjusted ones).

So how many Prius's (aka Prii) does GM have to sell to sell a $35K G8? I am thinking they will save the MPG credits for Cadillacs and such.

Cali is all talk. The day I see a hybrid cop car.I will start to get worried. As of right now the state is officially broke they will not put effort towards anything unless it can make revenue. I don't for see any big changes in the near future. maybe after we get out of a recession the tree huggers will need something to run rampit on "there goal for every one to drive a prius." But as far as I know cali is the worst and every other state just follow there lead so. Drive it like you stole cause in 10 years you wont have it our you wont be able to afford filling it up.

no one could ever say it better than Milton Friedman himself

sad truth.:(

Pre-warning the rant is about how everyone's been talking about how great the free market is. I feel I needed to bring you down to earth a bit on this.
Start Rant:
You know what the free market brought us? The early 1900's(pre union workers), the great depression (unregulated market), and one can go as far as to say 7million deaths in Ireland right as a political shift happened in the mid 1800's. I get how much it seems to suck when a new regulation comes out but our lives are so much better now due to it. We take it for granted. Suppose global warming is man made, suppose most scientists in the world without an oil company or auto company or energy company standing behind them aren't a crack pot. Ever gone down to your local university and spoken to an environmental scientist (Ph.D) even in oil states the research is sound. Anywho, say it is true, damn wont it be nice for our kids to have a semi-livable planet? My favorite thing about the republican "we hate taxes and gov intervention" views is that your so-beloved military is paid with your taxes. Your police (who ticket you and keep the pedophiles and murder's away) are tax paid government regulated system. Hell those public schools you send your kids to are, guess what, government regulated. Then you whine about how they aren't doing a great job and then whine about how much you pay for them.

:End rant.

The thing is, the U.S. Government wont just walk up to you and say "Hey, your car doesn't meet our standards go get a new one" to a large portion of it's citizens without a reimbursement program (damn that government for helping us out) similar to the digital bandwidth change (You do know this only effects those using analog antenna's right?). So I wouldn't worry too terribly much, worse case scenario you make out with a nice electrical car (you do know that electrical cars can easily out compete carbon combustion engine right?)

For those who want to see a 1000hp Electrical Car check out shelby: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=140526

For those who like 0-60 in 3.7s and 1/4 miles in 12.7s check out: http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/perf_specs.php
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/30/tesla-roadster-goes-to-the-drags-does-a-12-7-second-quarter-mil/

If wide spread adoption picks up, these things will drop in price like nobodies business and we will have "green friendly" super cars for 30k.

To those who say EV is bad for the environment Nuclear power is the key. 3mile island/Chernobyl wont happen again and coal is worse; challenge me on it if you like I'm happy to fight it.

Let me just start this off with that I work for a LARGE environmental company that deals with every major vehicle OEM in the world. Meeting 50 state regs isn't that difficult for a given model it's just cost. There is a LOT more to meeting regs than tailpipe emissions. Tailpipe alone will not even come close to good enough in the coming years, I think it's 13 when they get stricter again.

What is harder is the proportions of vehicles depending on how they swing the future CAFE ratings. Cost per vehicle amounts to clean them a few more percent is less than most rebates they throw around. The chances of a retro emissions law is pretty slim and they can start with MD and HD vehicles which will given them a lot more emissions lowering per dollar spent. Let's just say that I think most politicians and enviromentalists (and yes I am one) are more like monkeys banging on typewriters to get supporters rather than people of rational thought and action who want to have reasonable policy that is best for everyone, including our future generations.

I'm not against a cleaner environment, but I have always been against the cleanest countries having to become marginally cleaner at a price that instead would bring the worst offending countries like India and China at least up to the level of where we were 20-30 years ago. Keep the developed worlds on a scheduled improvement in mpg, but also demand that the countries we buy 90% of our goods and services from catch up.

Do you realize how much pollution comes from idling container ships waiting in port? http://www.coalitionforcleanair.org/alerts/newsflash/State-Air-Board-Votes-Unanimously-to-Clean-Up-Ships-12-6-07.html

The easiest way to inspire people to go to more fuel efficient cars is to raise the price via taxes paid at the pump. When gasoline shot over $4 per gallon due to oil futures pricing, many people adjusted their driving habits. However, no politician is going to vote for that tax increase since that won't get them re-elected [Their first goal once elected].

No. Politicians will force us to drive econoboxes while they get to drive around in luxobarges. They pass laws for us to live with, not them. Sorry, I like to choose what I drive from a reasonable selection of different cars.:rant: BTW, I am satisfied with the fuel mileage on my G8 GT.