Omg Gxp And St Revealed [Archive] - Pontiac G8 Forum: G8 Forums

Spanielrage

03-15-2008, 07:57 AM

So, 402 Hp, pending certification? That's a bit odd, the LS3 in the 'vette is rated at 430 (436 with optional exhaust).

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2008/HPT%20Library/Gen%20IV/Gen%20IV%20Car/08_LS3/2008_62L_LS3_combination.pdf

GM detuned the engine? Or marketing pukes just don't know their facts?

**Edit: check out that torque curve :D **

Cheers

Based on personal experience (dyno runs on a Cadillac CTS DI and a 2008 Corvette), GM looks to be moving to wheel horsepower ratings. That makes sense, as certain states are moving to "enhance" fuel economy requirements and reduce air pollution by increasing taxes on higher horsepower vehicles (which is just a politically motivated way to justify tax increases), and some insurance companies base rates off horsepower ratings. This may be GM's way of trying to avoid criticism.

tmoneyr007

03-15-2008, 08:02 AM

So this LS3 is the EXACT same motor as the Vette's? Detuned or different camshaft?

I wouldn't mind the numbers if they make torque earlier in the powerband (due to the G8's weight over the vette) but if it makes the rated power in the same band as the Vette's (minus the top end due to tuning) then what's the reasoning behind the 402/400?

Why not give it the full power?

yevot

03-15-2008, 08:05 AM

I hate to be a downer, but 402hp? That's only a 12% increase above the GT. The body doesn't look different unless you're REALLY looking for it. While I'm glad it didn't get stupid aggressive, it looks like something a pre-teen with Photoshop could do. I really hope this means it'll be a minor cost increase, but it probably won't be.

On the other hand, I'm glad they got rid of the honeycombing on the rear bumper and the dead spots in the lowest front grill and I like the wheels a lot more.

All things considered, I don't think it'd be worth more than a price $4k higher than a loaded GT for an equally-loaded GXP. There's just not enough difference.

b4z

03-15-2008, 08:09 AM

1) Those rear tires are huge!
2) They changed the front fascia. YAY!
3) It better have more than 402hp. I was expecting 425-430hp.
4) 3.70 gear on the 6sp manual. I doubt they are getting the M12.
Probably the .50 6th instead of our .57 6th.
5) Nice small spoiler.
6) This will be a fantastic car PERIOD!

archerm3

03-15-2008, 08:11 AM

I didn't read the rules. But, I haven't entered. If they bring that over for anywhere close to $28K, I'm gonna be signing every paper in the dealership. :drink:

I may have to buy two of them...at that price.

pharden

03-15-2008, 08:13 AM

http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/08ny/brands/pontiac/08_NYAS_Pontiac_G8%20GXP_OR.htm

mike c

03-15-2008, 08:15 AM

Great looking cars! Now the big question, how much are we going to have to pay for them????:huh:

A loaded '08 GT's MSRP is $32,745 so a loaded '09 GXP has to be $38-39K. But if they do it right, you should be able to get a "stripped" (and I use that term loosley) for $35K MSRP since you can get a base GT for $30K. That would be my guess based on current GM pricing startegies.

b4z

03-15-2008, 08:19 AM

Nope. I was wrong. 6spd manual is a .57 6th.
Definitely going to be a gas guzzler.

Anybody know why they are quoting 402hp?

NVR2FST

03-15-2008, 08:20 AM

I was told that it will be roughly priced from $35k-$42k. I wish is was changed a bit more from the GT. I tuned GT with a couple mods will no doubt put out 400hp for less money.

And GM will never put a Vette motor in something else that makes the same power...the Vette has to be the flagship. It probably has a smaller cam etc. in it.

tmoneyr007

03-15-2008, 08:25 AM

Habibus

03-15-2008, 08:28 AM

And GM will never put a Vette motor in something else that makes the same power...the Vette has to be the flagship. It probably has a smaller cam etc. in it.

The LS2 made 400HP in the GTO and CTS-V, same as the Vette. The LS6 made 405 in the CTS-V, same as the C5 Z06. The LS2 made a little less than 400HP in the Trailblazer SS and the SSR.

30HP isn't that much difference in the 2 LS3s. It's probably something with the intake on the G8. It looks very restrictive. Which is why guys in Australia are getting such gains with an OTR intake.

need4spd

03-15-2008, 08:40 AM

anyone else notice some "minor" things, like dash on the ST has a "nav" button (but it is also the speedo is set to K/PH, so maybe it is a Oz dash?

GXP has a new rear antenna

LSxcellent

03-15-2008, 08:48 AM

Just... unbelievable. GM did this SO right! It just looks so awesome!

And the spec sheet reads like an American Car wet dream! Corvette Engine? Check. 6 speed manual? Check. Sport Suspension (which is FULLY ADJUSTABLE BTW). check. Four doors for the family (to appease the wife)? Double check.

They are going to sell a TON of these cars.. judging by the spec sheet I'm betting this is around a $36K-$37k car... which is about right for the market place.

Maximum Bob is my Automotive God.

EDIT: Anyone else notice that it requires PREMIUM FUEL!? That's a little bit of a pisser... 12% more power, but the fuel costs 7-10% more!

~LSx

Orbit Orange

03-15-2008, 08:50 AM

The more and more I think of the 402 HP quote, the more disappointed I get. I hope GM is sandbagging on this quote. You could probably spend 400 bucks or so and get a killer professional tune on 91 octane on the L76 to bump it up to 400 HP. GM needs to remember bragging rights are big too. The "smaller" 6.1 liter displacement Hemi in the SRT-8 is pumping out 425HP/420TQ. They need to bump the LS3 in the GXP up to that AT LEAST or surpass it slightly. Also these are still flywheel ratings as the SAE system is still a flywheel based test I believe.

C'mon GM give it to us with close (within 5 hp) of what the Vette gets. There is absolutely no reason to detune this engine to step on the Vette's toes. The vette weighs a good 600 pounds less. 20 hp/20 tq may not sound like a lot, but when it comes right down to it, IT IS!

b4z

03-15-2008, 08:52 AM

According to the Dyno from Haddad Motorsports the 361hp G8 GT is putting out as much power as a 400hp LS2. They are saying 327hp on a green engine so we might be seeing
360hp at the wheels on the GXP. I still would like to see the official rating be closer to the LS3 Corvette's.

GigaHz

03-15-2008, 08:57 AM

When they say adjustable suspension, are they saying magnetic ride like the corvette?

TiredGXP

03-15-2008, 09:01 AM

Orbit Orange

03-15-2008, 09:14 AM

ST weight is listed at 3995 pounds. Same as the G8 GT. :rolleyes:

I wish GM would just say TBD (to be determined) instead of lazy number reporting. They can't be the same weight. I'd guess the ST would be lighter by 50 to 100 pounds. I know it is a nitpick, but the devil is in the details.

Regardless, I'm still stoked. :D

LSxcellent

03-15-2008, 09:17 AM

I bet GMPP is going to have something to say about this!

You know that GMPP has a WHOLE BUNCH of performance parts for the LS3, and I can ASSURE you that they are going to have intakes/exhausts/camshafts/etc for this engine... You will be able to get your 500hp G8 from the factory, you'll just have to specify it that way!

One thing we ALL have to keep in mind is that the L76 is almost IDENTICAL to the LS3, so we shouldn't expect a HUGE difference between them! I think the LS3 just has more tuning potential...

Either way, 400hp is NOTHING to sneeze at, and its a GREAT starting point for GM.

~LSx

Maplehawk

03-15-2008, 09:20 AM

I'm in.

So when can I take delivery? That seems to be the big problem at GM.

Actually, I am not convinced that I will ever see a GXP in Canada

Orbit Orange

03-15-2008, 09:27 AM

Hey check out the interior shot of the ST.

Dirty floorboard with dust and rocks (and partial shoeprint) and fingerprints on the display screen. Who preps these for the photoshoots, that guy from "Dirty Jobs". ;)

SRG963

03-15-2008, 09:51 AM

I think I might throw the dollar increase of a GXP over the GT to put a blower on the GT. That way I'll end up with more ponies and AFM. I'm in sales, driving 35000+ miles a year and gas is going to $4.00 a gallon! What do you think guys?:dunno:

I was thinking the exact same thing, and I'm sure the 09 GT's will be out before the GXP version.

Is anyone else as happy about the new 2-way advanced remote starting system on the 09's as I am? It tells you how much time you have left after you remote start your car before it shuts off along with tire pressure and other things

chiefpontiac

03-15-2008, 09:55 AM

Pontiac wants us to name the G8 "truck". Go to: http://pontiac.emipowered.net/tamethename/?cmp=ttn_vanity

They obviously have decided "GO" on bringing this to us in late 2009 as a 2010 (reading on their pages and within teh rules for eth sweeps) They also suggest that the starting price will be similar to the sedan. :drink:

I am all-in!!!! Could be a 2-G8 household for me. :drool:

txbatman

03-15-2008, 09:59 AM

OMG! OMG! OMG!

Pontiac finally did it. They hit a double home run! Now if the coupe comes out, that will be a Grand Slam.
talk about happy in the pants! Gonna be a very long 18 months.

tmoneyr007

03-15-2008, 10:00 AM

Now just put a M6 in the GT ya morons!!!!!

will

03-15-2008, 10:01 AM

The adjustable suspension isn't the magnetic ride, it is adjustable front (caster, camber, and toe) macpherson struts and rear (camber and toe) coilovers.

For me horsepower was the least important part of the GXP, horsepower in the small block is relatively cheap. The adjustable, race track tuned, suspension, bigger Brembo brakes, and 6 speed manual would all cost more than 40 horses. I don't like the chrome wheels but that is an easy fix and there will surely be other options available. The only thing I want, not as standard equipment but as an option, is that boy racer wing.

chiefpontiac

03-15-2008, 10:03 AM

LS3 at 402 hp. See, I was right a long time ago. I KNEW that the GXP would not get the full 430 of the 'vette. Still enough to set the GXP apart from the G8 yet be streetable enough for the missus. Maybe even no gas guzzler tax. (fingers crossed)
"Pending final testing, the G8 GXP is expected to deliver 0-to-60 mph performance of about 4.7 seconds, and a quarter-mile time of 13.0 seconds at 108 mph."

GigaHz

03-15-2008, 10:03 AM

The adjustable suspension isn't the magnetic ride, it is adjustable front (caster, camber, and toe) macpherson struts and rear (caster and camber) coilovers.

For me horsepower was the least important part of the GXP, horsepower in the small block is relatively cheap. The adjustable, race track tuned, suspension, bigger Brembo brakes, and 6 speed manual would all cost more than 40 horses. The only thing I want, not as standard equipment but as an option, is that boy racer wing.

Don't all G8's adjust the same way? I think they are adding MRC to th GXP.

pinski

03-15-2008, 10:10 AM

Now just put a M6 in the GT ya morons!!!!!

That's what I'm screaming. However, if a GXP is the only way I can get a M6, that's what I'll have to do I suppose.

Belo

03-15-2008, 10:11 AM

Looks like I didn't stay up late enough last night.

My thoughts:

1. Glad they didn't ruin the gxp, but I wish they used the HSV fascia.
2. I'm not worried about 402hp, a tune will bring you to 430
3. 402 makes me think it might not be "that" much more than the gt
4. How, when do I get one? I'll sign up now :)

will

03-15-2008, 10:14 AM

I could be wrong but I didn't see anything about the Magnetic Ride Control in the press release.

chill

03-15-2008, 10:40 AM

im slightly dissapointed with the numbers. should have more gains than just that, especially since it will run on premium only. heck, a gt with a tune for premium may be able to net the same numbers just off a good tune! car looks good and clean, but to justify the possible big price increase, i would have to stick with the gt now (in hopes of a manual option)

if the numbers get north of the 430+ range then they will grab my attention. dont ***** foot around the corvettes numbers and try to stay below them, thats why the vette had the zo6 option and the soon to be zr1.

chrish

tmoneyr007

03-15-2008, 11:16 AM

NeqsG8GT

03-15-2008, 11:29 AM

The G8 GXP isn't competing with the Corvette. It's competing with the Charger SRT8 which it beats with less HP/TQ. I'm also happy GMNA didn't go too wild on the GXP but I wish they would have adopted the HSV tail LEDs. It will be priced above my budget and I refuse to buy an automatic so I will probably have to wait a few years to get a used one. Bummer. This is a win for GM enthusiasts and a win for Chrysler fans as Chrysler will have to to put a manual in the Charger to compete. My Chrysler employee fanatic brother will be happy. GM knows the HEMI will get a bump up soon and they can mod the LS3 to match with zero cost.

Product is awesome. Marketing is finally decent. Distribution is messy but at least it's happening. Exciting times for the Poncho faithful.

Cool_Hand_Luke

03-15-2008, 11:54 AM

Now just put a M6 in the GT ya morons!!!!!

Well, after the first 6M GXP wreck it will become a possibility. I can see conversions happening.

Cool_Hand_Luke

03-15-2008, 11:55 AM

Any way the 402HP is due to it being tuned for Regular Unleaded?

Should of multi-quoted. The specs say Premium for the LS3 GXP

GigaHz

03-15-2008, 11:58 AM

Should of multi-quoted. The specs say Premium for the LS3 GXP

They say that for the L76 too. But we know it was tuned for regular.

baabootoo

03-15-2008, 12:07 PM

Same size tires too? I figured a serious bump for the rear rubber, for a better look. The rear fenders can handle more rubber easily.

PMD G8

03-15-2008, 12:08 PM

Gotta love the 4 window switchs on the ST. :)

b4z

03-15-2008, 12:32 PM

I can tell you from that pic that those rear tires are a lot bigger than 245s.

ChipC

03-15-2008, 12:41 PM

They say that for the L76 too. But we know it was tuned for regular.

The GM press release for the G8 and G8 GT does not say premium. It says regular, premium will maximize performance. G8 GXP clearly states premium. I would guess there are still some gains to be had with a tune, but I don't think GM has left as much on the table as they did with the GT.

Chip

PMD G8

03-15-2008, 12:45 PM

The GXP wheels look almost identical to the new CTS-V rims.

ChipC

03-15-2008, 12:59 PM

I can tell you from that pic that those rear tires are a lot bigger than 245s.

They may be bigger on the show car, but they will not be bigger on the production car according to GM.

Those wheels look to be a design duplicate of the 09 CTS-V wheels. Might be a nice stealth upgrade for the GXP (from 19x8 around to 19x9 and 19x9.5 stagger).

Chip

ChipC

03-15-2008, 01:01 PM

The GXP wheels look almost identical to the new CTS-V rims.

You noticed the same thing while I was typing my post. :drink: The CTS-V wheels are wider and are forged aluminum. The press release does not specifically describe the GXP wheels.

Chip

NVR2FST

03-15-2008, 01:28 PM

For some reason I thought the Vette was rated 5hp more...my bad. I know my TBSS was rated at 395hp.

What is the OTR intake? I thought the L76 was a pretty good intake?

The LS2 made 400HP in the GTO and CTS-V, same as the Vette. The LS6 made 405 in the CTS-V, same as the C5 Z06. The LS2 made a little less than 400HP in the Trailblazer SS and the SSR.

30HP isn't that much difference in the 2 LS3s. It's probably something with the intake on the G8. It looks very restrictive. Which is why guys in Australia are getting such gains with an OTR intake.

bighomey

03-15-2008, 01:45 PM

Pontiac has a slam Dunk with this GXP they didn't do too much which is very important when trying to keep the price very competitive!!!

stop worrying about the 402hp rating(gm rated lower on purpose) who cares this car is going to run high 12s stock!!!!!!!!plus we all know the ls3 is going to respond to mods good!!

PMD G8

03-15-2008, 01:53 PM

For some reason I thought the Vette was rated 5hp more...my bad. I know my TBSS was rated at 395hp.

What is the OTR intake? I thought the L76 was a pretty good intake?

OTR stands for Over The Radiator.

ChipC

03-15-2008, 01:54 PM

For some reason I thought the Vette was rated 5hp more...my bad. I know my TBSS was rated at 395hp.

What is the OTR intake? I thought the L76 was a pretty good intake?

OTR is Over The Radiator. This would be a CAI setup not a replacement for the intake manifold.

Chip

GigaHz

03-15-2008, 03:02 PM

The GM press release for the G8 and G8 GT does not say premium. It says regular, premium will maximize performance. G8 GXP clearly states premium. I would guess there are still some gains to be had with a tune, but I don't think GM has left as much on the table as they did with the GT.

Chip

Yep it looks like your right premium.

need4spd

03-15-2008, 03:57 PM

Gotta love the 4 window switchs on the ST. :)Maybe the rear 1/4 windows open?

GigaHz

03-15-2008, 03:58 PM

Maybe the rear 1/4 windows open?

GTPrix said it was left over from the sedan and never fixed for the ST.

r1owner

03-15-2008, 04:01 PM

What's the thinking on them announcing pricing on the GXP?

OKsweetrides

03-15-2008, 04:07 PM

GigaHz

03-15-2008, 04:09 PM

bracketracer

03-15-2008, 04:30 PM

I'm couldn't be happier! Now I will be able to get my G8 GXP manual, and I bet my dad will be getting a G8 ST (or whatever they call it) to replace his '95 S-10.

ChipC

03-15-2008, 04:34 PM

The difference between the TBSS LS2 and the C6 LS2 was due to fan requirements if I recall.

The 402hp is underrated. Cue the Z28/SS crowd to chime in on the "10hp" difference that didn't exist. Or the fact that the 335hp Fbody = 350hp C5.

That 402 is actually 430. It isn't any different than the LS3 C6.
Put the car on some rollers and compare to the LS3 C6's and you'll find they are the same in essence.

I hope you're right. I'm thinking part of it may be a quieter induction system. Historically, GM has allowed "noisier" operation of the Vette than on the rest of the lineup. Kinda of like the L76 having such a big restriction. Easy to fix.

Chip

glugo1001

03-15-2008, 05:04 PM

So glad to see these two models coming. GXP styling is a lot more conservative than I was expecting. I thought for sure we would at least get the HSV fender vents. Anywho, now we just need the wagon to complete the picture. I'm interested in the ST and I wonder if any of our Aussie friends could comment on this question?

Does the Ute in Australia have a spare tire?

CMNTMXR57

03-15-2008, 05:53 PM

Just be happy they didnt give it the bucky the beaver treatment.

http://www.autobytel.com/images/Autoshows/2007/Detroit/Staff/2008_Pontiac_G6_GXP/400/IMG_0840.jpg

Yea, no kidding. I thought the G6 GXP looked decent as a Pro-stock dragster then I saw one at the dealer and about threw up.

AmpedG8

03-15-2008, 06:10 PM

Need more pictures of the production GXP! This may be the vehicle that will keep me from going back to a Corvette. Only a test drive will determine. I was hoping for wider tires to provide better traction. Didn't they learn from the GTO? Good to see the HSV wheels make it though.

I still don't understand the G8 el-camino. :mullet: :judge:

GTPprix

03-15-2008, 06:27 PM

The difference between the TBSS LS2 and the C6 LS2 was due to fan requirements if I recall.

The 402hp is underrated. Cue the Z28/SS crowd to chime in on the "10hp" difference that didn't exist. Or the fact that the 335hp Fbody = 350hp C5.

That 402 is actually 430. It isn't any different than the LS3 C6.
Put the car on some rollers and compare to the LS3 C6's and you'll find they are the same in essence.

Jon and I had this conversation with the product manager when we were driving the pilots, its 99% intake and exhaust restriction. With the new SAE cert's they cant really underrate things anymore.

sccaGTO

03-15-2008, 06:27 PM

Now just put a M6 in the GT ya morons!!!!!

For freakin' real. :judge: I'll gladly take an L76 ST as long as it has the 6M. I can't wait.

new berlin steve

03-15-2008, 06:29 PM

I'm somewhat disapointed Pontiac didn't distinguish the GXP from the standard G8 more in appearance, specifically the front end. I was hoping for something along the lines of the HSV GTS. We knew it was getting LS3 power, M6, brake, suspension & interior upgrades. Now the question is...save 8K & mod the GT or...

IMO I'm excited that they showed restraint. The only people on the street who'll know what it is are the people who already know what it is. Get it? And then, it'll be too late for the unsuspecting Mustang, Charger, 3-series, 5-series, etc, driver because you'll have lured them into your little trap! Those GXP-specific 19's will become well known.
Besides, the aftermarket will make plenty of add-ons for guys to adorn their ride with.

sccaGTO

03-15-2008, 06:33 PM

I can tell you from that pic that those rear tires are a lot bigger than 245s.

Look like 245s from my view. I should know. I run 275s on my GTO.

new berlin steve

03-15-2008, 06:37 PM

In all fairness .... 402 is underrated, just as the GT's 361 is under rated.

You can seriously take a manual G8 GXP and push mid 400's to the rear wheels with a few modifications and a tune. (headers/cam/tune).

Absolutely, but what I'm looking forward to is all the torque under the curve. The peak torque rating is fine, but give me 350+ torque from 1k to 6k rpm and I'm a happy camper! (Though I do appreciate the other 50 above that, as well!)

AmpedG8

03-15-2008, 06:41 PM

IMO I'm excited that they showed restraint. The only people on the street who'll know what it is are the people who already know what it is. Get it? And then, it'll be too late for the unsuspecting Mustang or Charger driver because you'll have lured them into your little trap! Those GXP-specific 19's will become well known.
Besides, the aftermarket will make plenty of add-ons for guys to adorn their ride with.

I believe the point is that spending extra cash on an "up-level" trim would provide upgraded/improved styling. Personally, I don't care what others think or notice as long as the improved styling looked better to me. The GXP specific wheels are a start. And sneaking up on other cars is irrelevant since street racing is illegal. :wall:

b4z

03-15-2008, 07:20 PM

I run 245s on my GTO, and those tires look like they took them off the new CTS-V and bolted them on. I'm guessing 285s. Maybe you and I are looking at different pics.

b4z

03-15-2008, 07:24 PM

Tire size look familiar?

http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/2009CadillacCTSVPress/1000442453

sccaGTO

03-15-2008, 07:55 PM

ChipC

03-15-2008, 08:08 PM

It is interesting that the only thing we haven't seen so far is the interior. So far, I am on the fence. The suspension changes are OK, but may impact the ride. Wheels are different, but still basically the same size. Brakes are a nice improvement.

Front and rear fascias are OK, but the changes are too subtle. I'm not necessarily looking for the HSV front or a wing, but at least enough to differeniate for car guys. Right now, even car enthusiasts are going to have to study it closely to know the difference. I would have liked to had the HSV rear fascia and tailights.

Engine is fine and tranny is fine. Those are both good foundations.

Frankly, I would like to see the interior to see how much change is there. The press release talks a good game, but were they able to deliver.

Chip

BlueGoat

03-15-2008, 08:16 PM

IMO I'm excited that they showed restraint. The only people on the street who'll know what it is are the people who already know what it is. Get it? And then, it'll be too late for the unsuspecting Mustang, Charger, 3-series, 5-series, etc, driver because you'll have lured them into your little trap! Those GXP-specific 19's will become well known.
Besides, the aftermarket will make plenty of add-ons for guys to adorn their ride with.

Ah, yes, restraint! Take it from an old timer, you don't want your car to look like it rolled in off the drag strip. Stealth is deadly. It also keeps your car from being as much of a target. The GTO is a great example of that, because some ricers still think it's a GrandAm. Those of us who know cars will know the GXP. It doesn't matter to anyone else, does it?

r1owner

03-15-2008, 08:44 PM

Orbit Orange

03-15-2008, 08:47 PM

Jon and I had this conversation with the product manager when we were driving the pilots, its 99% intake and exhaust restriction. With the new SAE cert's they cant really underrate things anymore.

Not surprising with all those retarded baffles on the intake. I'm guessing it's also crimp and bend city underneath with the exhaust, just like on the stock GTO's. And you are correct, there is NO fudge room anymore under the more stringent and strict SAE certification. If it says 402 you can bet it is within a few HP of that number. I'm thinking a good free flowing intake and exhaust will be good for 30 HP on the LS3 if this 402 HP number is correct.

Camino LS6

03-15-2008, 09:10 PM

This is a great day!

But I'll have a better one in about 18 months or so.

Pushing_Tin

03-15-2008, 09:14 PM

Attorneyguy

03-15-2008, 09:24 PM

There is lots of excitement on this board today with all the new G8 announcements.
But will the G8 line do sales equal to or better than what the Grand Prix has done? Does it matter?

asylum

03-15-2008, 09:31 PM

very happy they showed restraint and didn't go the full HSV package (also, HSV probably couldn't handle the extra load at the moment with record local sales already)

after seeing one in black, the front was barely different, but the eyebrow above the fog lamp and single open air dam definitely gives it more mild aggression without screaming boy-racer.

i'd say it would run the standard offset 19" rims with the 245's all round. HSV get the larger rears through offset changes in the brakes, but the GXP using Brembo's will probably not have this option.

heres a little chop i've done, VERY slight change to the front, HSV guard vent (would help differentiate it from the GT, also make it harder for people to copy) and some wheels with dish stolen from an AC-Schnitzer BMW

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/photoshop/g8GXP-1.jpg

ChipC

03-15-2008, 09:31 PM

ChipC

03-15-2008, 09:33 PM

There is lots of excitement on this board today with all the new G8 announcements.
But will the G8 line do sales equal to or better than what the Grand Prix has done? Does it matter?

Depends on what timeframe you look at, but I doubt it will only because of the production limitations at Holden. Ultimately, I don't think it matters. I believe GM is trying to split the Grand Prix sales in two directions. Economy minded folks toward the G6 and big car/performance buffs toward the G8 lines. I think this should make things more profitable for GM.

Chip

ChipC

03-15-2008, 09:36 PM

ChipC

03-15-2008, 09:40 PM

I see your point, but am actually glad they didn't go too far. The car looks good as a GT. I hope their restraint results in not too big of a price jump over a GT.

See my response above. I guess I like how they differentiated by GP GXP from the other GP models. Unique front fenders, front fascia, rear spoiler, and rear lower fascia/exhaust. Not boy racer, but enough that even the average person will look and go Hmmmm... something is different. I think Pontiac's version misses that slightly. At least it isn't an ugly or garish mistake.

Chip

STex

03-15-2008, 09:44 PM

There is lots of excitement on this board today with all the new G8 announcements.
But will the G8 line do sales equal to or better than what the Grand Prix has done? Does it matter?

They are two totally different cars…any comparison is absurd…now back to topic, I like the restraint and the GT look…no wing kid stuff…just the go fast stuff with strong tq…might have the magnetic ride..?

ChipC

03-15-2008, 09:45 PM

They are two totally different cars…any comparison is absurd…now back to topic, I like the restraint and the GT look…no wing kid stuff…just the go fast stuff with strong tq…might have the magnetic ride..?

Elsewhere, a reply from Jim Hopson says no on the MRC.

appletonrc

03-15-2008, 10:32 PM

PMD G8

03-15-2008, 10:51 PM

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080315/FREE/773618056/1065

http://cwimg.sv.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CW&Date=20080315&Category=FREE&ArtNo=773618056

Is this one going to get hit with the gas guzzler tax?

Not sure about that but if I had to guess I would say no. The GTO with the M6 did not have a Gas Guzzler tax but the GTO with A4's did. With 2 more gears for the G8 with the Auto tranny I'm sure the MPG numbers will be higher than that of the GTO's.

CMNTMXR57

03-15-2008, 10:54 PM

No offense, I don't like the HSV photoshopped fender vents. They look big, tacky, and 1990's Pontiac tack on body cladding like. Something Pontiac has been working so hard to get away from.

I like the more subtle GT style the way it is. It's classy yet still cool.

CMNTMXR57

03-15-2008, 10:56 PM

I like the how the GXP breaks the fog lights from the lower opening. Looks nice, but I too thought it would be closer to 425 HP.

As for the truck... the rear overhang seems too long to me, it's probably due to making the box big enough, but it looks weird to me.

I think a wagon would sell better than the truck version.

Are you kidding? Do you know how many people for how long have been frothing at the mouth for a Ute here in the states? No one has shown that level of interest in a wagon.

Just go over to LS1GTO and see how many want a Ute. You'll quickly see what I'm saying.

ChipC

03-15-2008, 11:15 PM

Not sure about that but if I had to guess I would say no. The GTO with the M6 did not have a Gas Guzzler tax but the GTO with A4's did. With 2 more gears for the G8 with the Auto tranny I'm sure the MPG numbers will be higher than that of the GTO's.

This MT article says Pontiac believes they will have to pay a gas guzzler tax. It didn't give a breakdown, but I would assume on both trannies. There is 1MPG diff (both city and highway) on the Corvette between 6MT and A6.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2008/112_0806_2009_pontiac_g8_gxp_first_look/details.html

Chip

veritasatis

03-15-2008, 11:21 PM

Are you kidding? Do you know how many people for how long have been frothing at the mouth for a Ute here in the states? No one has shown that level of interest in a wagon.

Just go over to LS1GTO and see how many want a Ute. You'll quickly see what I'm saying.

There is no doubt the Ute would outsell the wagon, but you can not base that just from ls1gto.com. The Ute coincides with the taste of a lot of people over there. The wagon, just like the 4-door, does not present a young enough image, or maybe it presents an old person image, either way. I am one of the few who would buy the wagon over the Ute, but I would not buy the Wagon over the 4-door.

asylum

03-15-2008, 11:23 PM

That's it. Subtle yet unique. Throw the Vauxhall rear undertray and rear lights on and I would be set. Not boy racer, but different.

i did a combination, HSV Senator and G8 GXP rear on this, i think it looks pretty tough

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/photoshop/g8GXPrear.jpg

ChipC

03-15-2008, 11:38 PM

i did a combination, HSV Senator and G8 GXP rear on this, i think it looks pretty tough

Pretty nice. I would drop the PONTIAC lettering, otherwise it looks great. Again, I think less is more. The HSV Senator rear with the GXP pan is probably enough for that head-scratching factor.

Chip

r1owner

03-15-2008, 11:38 PM

They have a link to the GXP on the Pontiac site already.

It says available 2009. I wonder how many hits that link will get between now and then.

I hope they are a little more forthcoming with availability dates on this model than they were on the G8.

CMNTMXR57

03-15-2008, 11:38 PM

There is no doubt the Ute would outsell the wagon, but you can not base that just from ls1gto.com. The Ute coincides with the taste of a lot of people over there. The wagon, just like the 4-door, does not present a young enough image, or maybe it presents an old person image, either way. I am one of the few who would buy the wagon over the Ute, but I would not buy the Wagon over the 4-door.

How can you not. It's just as valid a statistical population as any.

People say "I want Ute!" "Bring Ute stateside and I'll buy!"

Pretty black and white to me.

r1owner

03-15-2008, 11:40 PM

Rumors of 40K are seriously bringing me down though. :(

yevot

03-15-2008, 11:43 PM

Rumors of 40K are seriously bringing me down though. :(
Word. MT's estimate is under $38k but still.. that's a GT with everything and then most of supercharger. :nonono:

The price seems right for the current market (as does the V6, I guess) but not worth the difference (perhaps) of a GT (which we may all come to judge as THE best value).

veritasatis

03-15-2008, 11:48 PM

How can you not. It's just as valid a statistical population as any.

People say "I want Ute!" "Bring Ute stateside and I'll buy!"

Pretty black and white to me.

Because the people that frequent ls1gto.com are the type of people to whom the Ute would appeal. If you go to a BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, Infiniti, Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln, Audi, etc. site, the Ute would appeal to a far less proportion of the people that frequent those sites. Again, I agreed with you that the Ute would out sell the wagon. All I am saying is that the Ute will not be as popular to all of America as it would appear to be if you only judged the potential for success by the response at ls1gto.com.

sccaGTO

03-16-2008, 07:12 AM

Are you kidding? Do you know how many people for how long have been frothing at the mouth for a Ute here in the states? No one has shown that level of interest in a wagon.
:drool::drool::drool:

i did a combination, HSV Senator and G8 GXP rear on this, i think it looks pretty tough

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/photoshop/g8GXPrear.jpg

I say "Bonneville". :wiggle:

LSxcellent

03-16-2008, 09:02 AM

The G8 GT is NOT going to have a MT.

Why?

AFM requires communication with the transmission to work... when you shift your own gears, the AFM system can't respond fast enough and would get screwed up. This has been mentioned before in some of the interviews... The GT won't ever have a MT.

The LS3 does NOT have AFM and therefore works well with a MT.

The interior SOUNDS like its going to be almost exactly the same as the G8 with leather (just add embroidered GXP logos everywhere).

I hope they offer a 'hood nostril delete' option as someone mentioned... I want this car to look as classy and clean as possible. The hood nostrils just look a bit cheesy to me.

Would anyone REALLY object if the interior were almost the same and the only upgrades were mechanical? I'd be OK with that if it kept the costs down! I think GM is working pretty hard to keep the costs down, so I think $38K is a good, and maybe even high, estimate for the cost... I'm wagering $36k-$37k.

Either way, I'm starting my savings account right away!

~LSx

PMD G8

03-16-2008, 09:25 AM

I hope they offer a 'hood nostril delete' option as someone mentioned... I want this car to look as classy and clean as possible. The hood nostrils just look a bit cheesy to me.

~LSx

Just to let you know they tried that with the GTO in '05. They only sold about 25 with that option. I doubt they will do it again.

merchgod

03-16-2008, 09:40 AM

tmoneyr007

03-16-2008, 09:51 AM

Orbit Orange

03-16-2008, 10:01 AM

I predict the ute will be a failure, sales-wise. It really is only going to appeal to a very narrow range of customers. You can look at the trucks for trends. The average buyer is interested in 4-door pickups with plenty of interior space/leg room and willing to give up bed size to accomodate this. A 2-door, 2-seat car with a bed is only going to appeal to a very small number of customers. It may seem like it would sell well if you just look at these forums and others, but those are enthusiasts and only make up a small portion of buyers overall.

It will only be a "failure" in the heads of those who think it needs to sell in mass market numbers when it only needs to sell in niche numbers. As you obviously already think. It's a niche vehicle, small numbers, meant to sell in small amounts. I get sick of people coming here and other places claiming they know it will fail. Prove it!!! Funny thing is noone ever brings any real facts or statistics, just what they FEEL. So you feel it will fail, good for you. Bring some facts and we will discuss, if not good day to you.

LSxcellent

03-16-2008, 10:11 AM

Plain and simple, I want a M6 and am not paying 6-8K more for it.... NEXT vehicle.......

Um, WHAT vehicle might that be? Name ANY vehile you think you can get for less $$$ that has similar specs?

There isn't one. No one offers a 400hp sedan with a manual tranny for less than $38k. No one. Sure you _might_ find a used GTO for less, but that's a pretty old vehile, and I wouldn't be surprised if the G8 is faster...

But in terms of new vehicles, this is STILL the best bargain in town.

~LSx

LSxcellent

03-16-2008, 10:13 AM

From Edmunds Inside Line:

Pontiac says this is enough power to get the new 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP from zero to 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and through the quarter-mile in 13 seconds flat at 108 mph. Not bad for a car that is expected to sticker for "just under $40,000," according to Brian Shipman, the Pontiac G8's product manager.

Read more here:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/newyork/2008/2009pontiacg8gxp.html?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopan el..1.*

Sounds like its going to be another $39,995 sort of deal... thats rough.

~LSx

r1owner

03-16-2008, 10:22 AM

GigaHz

03-16-2008, 10:26 AM

It also sounds like it will ony have 2 prices. Auto or manual same price. Summer or all seson tires same price. The with or with out sunroof will be the only thing that changes the price.

r1owner

03-16-2008, 10:27 AM

Um, WHAT vehicle might that be? Name ANY vehile you think you can get for less $$$ that has similar specs?

~LSx

If we're strictly talking performance #'s here, the STi and Evo are in the same game.

I wouldn't consider either car as they are too small and ugly... but performance wise, they are with the GXP.

BlueGoat

03-16-2008, 10:28 AM

It will only be a "failure" in the heads of those who think it needs to sell in mass market numbers when it only needs to sell in niche numbers. As you obviously already think. It's a niche vehicle, small numbers, meant to sell in small amounts.

Marketing trends are not always predictable. In the U.S., thousands of people buy "sport" pickups, 2 seaters with short beds so they can "trick" them up. They buy V8s in those. Many of them have custom wheels and tires. Totally unsuitable for hauling anything because they've screwed with springs and shocks and ground clearance. How many would switch to a quicker ST with way-better handling, better mileage, more comfortable, better brakes and comparable price? Dunno, but maybe it's worth doing. :dunno:

merchgod

03-16-2008, 10:49 AM

It will only be a "failure" in the heads of those who think it needs to sell in mass market numbers when it only needs to sell in niche numbers. As you obviously already think. It's a niche vehicle, small numbers, meant to sell in small amounts. I get sick of people coming here and other places claiming they know it will fail. Prove it!!! Funny thing is noone ever brings any real facts or statistics, just what they FEEL. So you feel it will fail, good for you. Bring some facts and we will discuss, if not good day to you.
It's not a halo car where the manufacturer is willing to take a hit on profit in order to bring people into the dealership where they may buy another model. It may be marketed towards a particular niche, but that doesn't mean GM is going to be satisfied with low sales numbers, especially considering the cost to import this model. I would also imagine that there's not a ton of profit margin on these cars (given the low price for what you get). These aren't cash cows like SUVs and pickups were. Low sales numbers / slim profits and the trends of consumers in the truck market (as I already explained) doesn't bode well for this ute, which would probably be a 2nd or most likely 3rd car for a family (the declining economy also kills the extra/weekend-type car purchase). As far as feelings, your response tells me you have strong feelings for this vehicle and you came across as if you were offended by my comments. Don't get me wrong, I think the ute is cool, but just because you and I like it and some enthusiasts doesn't mean it wiil survive. Do you need a list of cool cars that were axed in the past?

As far as stats, I don't think you need stats to show that demand for 2-seat cars is in great decline (short of an exotic or near-exotic sports car). However, since you want to talk about facts/stats, by all means, present your case that the ute will be successful (which you seem to passionately believe).

General Motors reported halfway through 2007 that it had an inventory backlog of some 700,000 unsold trucks. A disproportionate number of those seem to be the regular-cab and extended-cab pickups, and not crew cabs. “The crew-cab models continue to grow when compared to extended-cab and regular-cab models,” Brian Goebel, a Chevrolet spokesman, wrote in an e-mail.

sccaGTO

03-16-2008, 11:12 AM

How many would switch to a quicker ST with way-better handling, better mileage, more comfortable, better brakes and comparable price?: dunno:

I make one.

LSxcellent

03-16-2008, 11:31 AM

If we're strictly talking performance #'s here, the STi and Evo are in the same game.

I wouldn't consider either car as they are too small and ugly... but performance wise, they are with the GXP.

We'll that's an interesting comparison... VERY different cars! That being said, you're right, I suppose they are in the sub-40k-performance-car group... but seems like VERY different audiences.

I admit I have looked at them, but I just can't get past how ugly they are.

~LSx

Last of a Breed

03-16-2008, 12:48 PM

It's not a halo car where the manufacturer is willing to take a hit on profit in order to bring people into the dealership where they may buy another model. It may be marketed towards a particular niche, but that doesn't mean GM is going to be satisfied with low sales numbers, especially considering the cost to import this model. I would also imagine that there's not a ton of profit margin on these cars (given the low price for what you get). These aren't cash cows like SUVs and pickups were. Low sales numbers / slim profits and the trends of consumers in the truck market (as I already explained) doesn't bode well for this ute, which would probably be a 2nd or most likely 3rd car for a family (the declining economy also kills the extra/weekend-type car purchase). As far as feelings, your response tells me you have strong feelings for this vehicle and you came across as if you were offended by my comments. Don't get me wrong, I think the ute is cool, but just because you and I like it and some enthusiasts doesn't mean it wiil survive. Do you need a list of cool cars that were axed in the past?

As far as stats, I don't think you need stats to show that demand for 2-seat cars is in great decline (short of an exotic or near-exotic sports car). However, since you want to talk about facts/stats, by all means, present your case that the ute will be successful (which you seem to passionately believe).

From what I understand, it's basically costing GM next to nothing to bring the Ute over here because all of its developmental costs have been covered by the G8. Also, I've read that GM plans to sell between 6-10000 Utes annually, so if that is true then I can see the Ute being a success.

r1owner

03-16-2008, 01:01 PM

I admit I have looked at them, but I just can't get past how ugly they are.

~LSx

That makes two of us then!

merchgod

03-16-2008, 01:35 PM

From what I understand, it's basically costing GM next to nothing to bring the Ute over here because all of its developmental costs have been covered by the G8. Also, I've read that GM plans to sell between 6-10000 Utes annually, so if that is true then I can see the Ute being a success.
It may hit that the first year, but I'd wager that will drop off quite a bit the second year and get axed. Of course, who knows? At least it will be rare which is good for those who bought one if I'm right. Maybe a collector's car down the road.

sccaGTO

03-16-2008, 02:51 PM

It may hit that the first year, but I'd wager that will drop off quite a bit the second year and get axed. Of course, who knows? At least it will be rare which is good for those who bought one if I'm right. Maybe a collector's car down the road.

Would you quit crapping in everyone's sandbox. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you're right & sales aren't close to the amount they import, then I guess you were right. La-de-freakin' da.

merchgod

03-16-2008, 03:04 PM

Would you quit crapping in everyone's sandbox. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you're right & sales aren't close to the amount they import, then I guess you were right. La-de-freakin' da.
Well, if you read what I wrote, I said I liked it. A discussion about whether it will be successful or not is hardly crapping in anybody's sandbox. Unless all you want is a site of fanboys slapping each other on the back with no unbaised discussion about anything.

sccaGTO

03-16-2008, 03:18 PM

Well, if you read what I wrote, I said I liked it. A discussion about whether it will be successful or not is hardly crapping in anybody's sandbox. Unless all you want is a site of fanboys slapping each other on the back with no unbaised discussion about anything.

Ok, you like it. But, you can't help but to try to rationalize why it should not be sold here. Since GM has already decided to bring it over, you still talk like it's a bad idea. That's crapping in the sandbox. Why not just let the sales (or lack thereof) speak for themselves? If I want a site with fanboys, I'll go back to GMInsideNews.com. This is an enthusiast website. Even V6 members can be enthusiastic about these cars (& trucks).

steve-L98

03-16-2008, 03:49 PM

Not the same. You can tell because pics of the CTS-V have Michelins. I can believe the 285s on the back of those. The GXP in the pics still has Bridgestones. Also, since this is built in Holden's main plant (not HSV's offsite assembly facility), GM is gonna stay with whatever package is offered on their Holdens. The biggest tire they offer is the 245/40/19. The GXP tires may have a slightly grippier tread compound to be considered "better" than the GT tires. But, they are not gonna be wider than the GT tires.

HSV have not built any cars in their offsite assembly facility since the VE has been in production.

All HSV's are assembled in the same plant where the G8's are made, this was done to lower costs for HSV to be competitive in a market where Holden had significatnly dropped the prices of their premium versions.

merchgod

03-16-2008, 04:03 PM

Ok, you like it. But, you can't help but to try to rationalize why it should not be sold here. Since GM has already decided to bring it over, you still talk like it's a bad idea. That's crapping in the sandbox. Why not just let the sales (or lack thereof) speak for themselves? If I want a site with fanboys, I'll go back to GMInsideNews.com. This is an enthusiast website. Even V6 members can be enthusiastic about these cars (& trucks).
Well, I think a G8 GT Wagon would also be cool, but no one is buying wagons these days (in the U.S. anyway) and it would likely not be a big seller. You can be enthusiast while also being a realist, or you can be a fanboy who gets upset if any opinion about the car is even slightly negative. If I had said, "holy crap! GM is going to sell a ton of these things!" with no reasoning whatsoever, I'm sure I would have received different responses to my comments. If you think it is going to be successful outside of a small group of enthusiasts, then by all means please explain why you think there is a unfufilled market for a 2-seat car with a bed. Not trying to rain on anybody's parade - just thought it was an interesting decision for GM. :)

BlueGoat

03-16-2008, 04:38 PM

Hmmm....just some random thoughts.....

Station wagons are still with us -- morphed into mini-vans and small SUVs. Volvo, Mercedes, even BMW make a few, still.

Since the old El Camino and Ranchero disappeared, who knows how many of us old timers would consider one now that the kids are out of the nest. How many of the short bed pickup drivers would opt for a performance Ute? I guess if anyone knew, there wouldn't be a question about a market.

Retro is in big fashion these days. Lots of kudos for the 'Stang. Lots of complaints about GTO styling. Hmmm.....

appletonrc

03-16-2008, 04:54 PM

Are you kidding? Do you know how many people for how long have been frothing at the mouth for a Ute here in the states? No one has shown that level of interest in a wagon.

Just go over to LS1GTO and see how many want a Ute. You'll quickly see what I'm saying.

How many truck based cars are on the market. Subaru seems to kick around the concept now and again, but it seems to bee supply/demand. Not a lot of demand, no supply. I think both a wagon and truck will be niche vehicles, but I see a wagon outselling the truck. Time will tell I guess.

Maplehawk

03-16-2008, 05:25 PM

That 402 is actually 430. It isn't any different than the LS3 C6.
Put the car on some rollers and compare to the LS3 C6's and you'll find they are the same in essence.

I think there will be a difference in the computer program. Nothing that cannot be 'fixed'. :boink:

Maplehawk

03-16-2008, 05:28 PM

[url]
Is this one going to get hit with the gas guzzler tax?

Exactly why there may be a few different bits and bytes in the old black box.

Maplehawk

03-16-2008, 05:42 PM

My 2 cents on the various thoughts:

Interior - I think we will just see the premium with stitching "GXP" . Would have liked the CTS-V / Trailblazer SS leather/suede combo.

Wagon - I would have bought a G8 Wagon GT for sure. I don't want an SUV and I do not want to pay the $70,000 to $80,000 that a 6 cyl Audi A6 or BMW 535xi costs. The A4s and 3 series wagons are fairly small, nice but again $50,000 to $60,000 up here. The Magnum must have told Pontiac that the wagon was not going to sell. More G8s may also negatively impact CAFE totals

I think GM is going to bring out a CTS wagon. The logic of developing two wagons and spliting the market escapes me. The CTS will be RHD and sold in Australia BTW.

'Ute/ST - It's the ONLY game in town. Sounds like a good way to bring customers into Pontiac stores. The press will give it lots of coverage. I think it's a no lose and if it's classed as a triuck maybe the CAFE impact is less.

As for Manuals/Autos - my Firehawks are sticks but for day to day commuting I will get an Auto. The Auto LS

gr8

03-16-2008, 06:07 PM

I think GM is going to bring out a CTS wagon. The logic of developing two wagons and spliting the market escapes me. The CTS will be RHD and sold in Australia BTW.

The Cadillac SRX is basically a CTS/STS wagon. It's on the same Sigma platform. It hasn't been a very good seller in the US, though so it's going away soon.

DarkG8GT

03-16-2008, 06:10 PM

I was hoping for 430HP/436HP with Corvette butterfly valve exhaust system. Looks great I can't wait to see it at the NY Auto Show this weekend. I wonder if the SAE ratings were with premium or regular?

FoxFour

03-16-2008, 06:17 PM

Like the rest of the guys say, don't worry about the early estimates of the GXP's engine rating. Once closer to production, we then may see GM's famous under-rated rating for the LS3.
I am so glad the ST will be going into production. It will fit my needs perfectly.

SilverFox

03-16-2008, 07:20 PM

Was hoping for more hp and hsv looks but oh well :confused:

Orbit Orange

03-16-2008, 07:26 PM

However, since you want to talk about facts/stats, by all means, present your case that the ute will be successful

Firstly I will define success in sales numbers. 10K a year would be a big success, 7-8 K would be a moderate success, 5K would be a mild success. You need to define what you call success or failure. Failure would be sales of under 5K a year, by my definition.

FACT ONE: Try this one on for size. ONE MILLION El Camino/Sprint/Caballeros sold during it's run. That's right over 1,000,000 million sold over 26 separate model years. You do the math on how many per year that is. If you want me to find the link to the sales per model year I'll dig it up.

FACT TWO: Sport trucks do sell in niche numbers. Take a look at Ford Lightning, Ram SRT-10, Silverado SS, and all the lowered and tricked out S-10's, Rangers and Colorados that the younger crowd like to customize. Remember these are NICHE numbers. We aren't talking sales of more than 5 to 8 K a year. And GM isn't going to lose the house over those numbers.

FACT THREE: There is NOTHING else like it on the US market. NOTHING. The cr@ptacular Honda Ridgeline doesn't count as it is based on a Minivan platform.

FACT FOUR: Two seater V8's sell in niche numbers. Look at Corvette and it is really above niche, but of course the ST won't sell in close to those numbers.

FACT FIVE: Americans like to haul things. Look at the glut of trucks in this country. There will be some truck buyers that will opt for the better mileage and sportier performance of the ST and with the utility to haul or tow small loads. Even if it is 0.5% of all truck buyers in this country, how many trucks are sold a year? A million or so. If 5 of every 1000 truck buyers would opt for a ST variant instead of a mid or full size truck, that is 5,000 ST sales right there. And I might be guessing short with those million trucks a year sold here, it's probably more.

FACT SIX: SOARING GAS PRICES. Eventually the big truck crowd is going to see that a smaller car-truck can fulfill their needs and get them better mileage. Again this could be 0.5% of the truck buying public (another 5K a year) but numbers are numbers,

So there are some straight facts, not opinion or wishful thinking or feelings. FACT.

And quit the crap about fanboy, DUH this is a G8 board, what did you think there would be a lot of Honda fans here. Jeesh get a clue.

asylum

03-16-2008, 07:43 PM

Camino LS6

03-16-2008, 08:06 PM

merchgod

03-16-2008, 09:12 PM

FACT ONE: Try this one on for size. ONE MILLION El Camino/Sprint/Caballeros sold during it's run. That's right over 1,000,000 million sold over 26 separate model years. You do the math on how many per year that is. If you want me to find the link to the sales per model year I'll dig it up.
Ford sold 2 million Pintos - maybe they should bring it back? Different era - different consumer.

FACT TWO: Sport trucks do sell in niche numbers. Take a look at Ford Lightning, Ram SRT-10, Silverado SS, and all the lowered and tricked out S-10's, Rangers and Colorados that the younger crowd like to customize. Remember these are NICHE numbers. We aren't talking sales of more than 5 to 8 K a year. And GM isn't going to lose the house over those numbers.
The SRT-10 was an abysmal failure, selling under 5000 units total. The Lightning was also axed in 2004. If there was a current market for the sport truck, do you think that Ford and Chrysler would ignore this? Customized Rangers/Colorados are not the equivalent of a $30K+ sport truck. GM is losing enough money as it is - they are not in a position to blow off any more losses. I think you might have had a point in late 90's, early 2000, but not today.

FACT THREE: There is NOTHING else like it on the US market. NOTHING. The cr@ptacular Honda Ridgeline doesn't count as it is based on a Minivan platform.
There's the Subaru Baja, a car based truck. Subaru, a niche manufacturer if there ever was one, expected to sell 30k of these a year. They barely sold that in 4 years and it was dumped. Obviously the Baja is much different than the ST, but the basic concept is the same and consumers weren't interested.

FACT FOUR: Two seater V8's sell in niche numbers. Look at Corvette and it is really above niche, but of course the ST won't sell in close to those numbers.
Corvette is an icon and a status symbol. You can't make a comparison here - it wouldn't translate.

FACT FIVE: Americans like to haul things. Look at the glut of trucks in this country. There will be some truck buyers that will opt for the better mileage and sportier performance of the ST and with the utility to haul or tow small loads. Even if it is 0.5% of all truck buyers in this country, how many trucks are sold a year? A million or so. If 5 of every 1000 truck buyers would opt for a ST variant instead of a mid or full size truck, that is 5,000 ST sales right there. And I might be guessing short with those million trucks a year sold here, it's probably more.
Hauling stuff is not the reason for the latest trend in truck sales. Consumers are demanding more car-like comforts and a bigger interior at the expense of bed length. And regular cabs are taking a big nose dive in sales. People nowadays are buying trucks as their main transportation and 4-door crew-cabs take a huge chunk of the market. So, they want it all in one vehicle - the ability to haul stuff if they need to AND the ability to haul people, not one or the other (which is why sedans sales are down).

FACT SIX: SOARING GAS PRICES. Eventually the big truck crowd is going to see that a smaller car-truck can fulfill their needs and get them better mileage. Again this could be 0.5% of the truck buying public (another 5K a year) but numbers are numbers,
This is a possibility, but again you go back to the vehicle as a 3rd car in the family. Someone who has a regular cab work truck isn't going to replace it with an ST and drive that to the work site. And a consumer isn't going to replace their main 4-door crew cab truck with a vehicle that can't carry more than 2 people.

And quit the crap about fanboy, DUH this is a G8 board, what did you think there would be a lot of Honda fans here. Jeesh get a clue.
Some forums are more fanboy-ish than others. Some can have a discussion about the negatives of their favorite brand/car without getting their panties in a bunch. Some can't.

Orbit Orange

03-16-2008, 09:33 PM

You haven't even answered my first question because I don't think you can.

DEFINE SUCCESS AND FAILURE. What would make it a success, what would make it a failure? I need to see both, you just can't define failure or state you think it will fail. That is all subjective thinking and without quantifying success and failure your argument does not hold weight. I've defined my numbers for success and failure. What is your definition.

Your first rebuttal is weak. We're not talking Pintos. Apples to apples buddy. 1 million El Caminos sold. FACT, no debating sales numbers. Will it sell that many again, hell no it won't. Will it sell up to 10K a year, possibly.

Your second rebuttal is also flawed, I'm basing my sales of the ST on NICHE vehicles and I gave examples of NICHE vehicles. Again apples to apples. Low sales numbers of niche vehicles aren't necessarily FAILURE as you imply. They sell less than 500 Lamborghinis in the US each year. Is it a failure??? Well by your definition it is. Rethink your definition.

Your third rebuttal is one we hear a lot and is once again an apples to oranges comparison. The Baja was an ALL WHEEL DRIVE wagon with a bed grafted to it. It was tiny, AWD and had a wimpy 4 banger. And while your at it don't bother bringing up the SSR either as that tired comparison is older than dirt as well.

Your forth rebuttal tells that you didn't think about my comparison in the first place, two seater RWD V8's. There is a market for these as evidenced by the Vette. Again it won't sell in Vette numbers but the market for a RWD V8 two seater is out there.

Rebuttal 5 is a truism, although many Americans "think" they need to haul things.

Six the ST isn't going to be a 1st car as you state. But this is NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR FULL SIZE TRUCKS. I don't understand that some of you can't get this through your heads. It is an ALTERNATIVE to a full size truck, with much of the utility, but not all.

My last suggestion is that if you don't like it. Don't buy it. Leave it to us that do, we know what it's uses are for and you evidently don't. Fine with me. But unless you can actually come up with what a success and failure would actually be for the ST, I'm not going to argue with you. You need to step up with a quantifiable definition of success and failure or move on and bother someone else.

sccaGTO

03-16-2008, 10:01 PM

HSV have not built any cars in their offsite assembly facility since the VE has been in production.

All HSV's are assembled in the same plant where the G8's are made, this was done to lower costs for HSV to be competitive in a market where Holden had significatnly dropped the prices of their premium versions.
nope, they are still sent to melbourne to be finished off.

only about 80% of the car is complete when it leaves elizabeth

Thanks for the clarification, Asylum. HSV is owned by a different person/company than Holden. That company would want their own work space to do their own work.

If you think it is going to be successful outside of a small group of enthusiasts, then by all means please explain why you think there is a unfufilled market for a 2-seat car with a bed. Not trying to rain on anybody's parade - just thought it was an interesting decision for GM. :)

It doesn't have to be successful outside of a certain group of enthusiasts. As said before, GM is probably planning no more than 10K (possibly each year) Utes to be sold here. Bear in mind, there are 2 billion people in the US. Start eliminating those under driving age, those with low credit (although they could have saved their money), those who don't need a truck at all, & those that are not enthusiasts. I'm willing to bet there are more than 10K people that still fit the "market segment" for a vehicle like this. I'm also willing to bet that there are 10K (or more) that are foaming at the mouth about this car (the enthusiasts). Even if they like it just because there is nothing like it in the US. Plus, they might try to certify it for Canada. Even more possible buyers.

Orbit Orange

03-16-2008, 10:05 PM

It doesn't have to be successful outside of a certain group of enthusiasts.

Another good point. A niche vehicle has to succeed with the group it is targeted for, not everyone. Very good point.

Quick change your 2 billion US population number, it's closer to 300 million. ;) But I get where you are coming from.

Also just as a relative example. Many claimed the GTO as a failure. As I gassed up in a nearby town today (population of about 2000) I saw 2 other GTO's. Three GTO's one town of 2000 people. Yeah failure. :rolleyes:

merchgod

03-16-2008, 10:11 PM

You haven't even answered my first question because I don't think you can.

DEFINE SUCCESS AND FAILURE. Do it what would make it a success, what would make it a failure? I need to see both, you just can't define failure or state you think it will fail. That is all subjective thinking and without quantifying success and failure your argument does not hold weight. I've defined my numbers for success and failure. What is your definition.
Success would be it is profitable enough for GM to continue to import it and not axe it after 2 years. Has GM mentioned how many STs they need to sell for it to remain viable and profitable enough to continue manufacturing it?

Your first rebuttal is weak. We're not talking Pintos. Apples to apples buddy. 1 million El Caminos sold. FACT, no debating sales numbers. Will it sell that many again, hell no it won't. Will it sell up to 10K a year, possibly.
So, your argument is based on a car who last model sold 20 years ago? That is weak in and of itself. The car market is COMPLETELY different now making that comparison completely irrelevant. This is exactly why the big 3 have been losing market share to the Japanese makes - living in the past rather than paying attention to what the market is doing now.

Your second rebuttal is also flawed, I'm basing my sales of the ST on NICHE vehicles and I gave examples of NICHE vehicles. Again apples to apples. Low sales numbers of niche vehicles aren't necessarily FAILURE as you imply. They sell less than 500 Lamborghinis in the US each year. Is it a failure??? Well by your definition it is. Rethink your definition.
GM is not a niche manufacturer. Talk about an apples to oranges comparison (GM v. Lamborghini). If GM sells 500 or even 5000 of model in a year, they will lose money...period and that model is gone. You cannot make a comparison here.

Your third rebuttal is one we hear a lot and is once again an apples to oranges comparison. The Baja was an ALL WHEEL DRIVE wagon with a bed grafted to it. It was tiny, AWD and had a wimpy 4 banger. And while your at it don't bother bringing up the SSR either as that tired comparison is older than dirt as well.
The point is that the general concept has been tried before and failed (The Baja was available with a 210 HP turbo motor and it didn't weigh 4000+ pounds, but that is neither here nor there). I will you give you this point, though, as they are nothing alike and the ute's strongest attributes (muscle car performance with big bed) is unique.

Your forth rebuttal tells that you didn't think about my comparison in the first place, two seater RWD V8's. There is a market for these as evidenced by the Vette. Again it won't sell in Vette numbers but the market for a RWD V8 two seater is out there.
OMG, I'm sorry but 2-seats are acceptable in a entry-level exotic like the Vette because its a freakin' Vette! No one is looking for nor expecting any kind of utility in a Vette. Your argument is that people will be drawn to the Ute because of the utility of being able to haul stuff. But you think they'll overlook the lack of utility of only being able to carry 2 passengers because people can overlook it in the Vette and they buy Vettes, so hey, that makes sense! Sorry, your logic is completely flawed.

My last suggestion is that if you don't like it. Don't buy it. Leave it to us that do, we know what it's uses are for and you evidently don't. Fine with me. But unless you can actually come up with what a success and failure would actually be for the ST, I'm not going to argue with you. You need to step up with a quantifiable definition of success and failure or move on and bother someone else.
It doesn't matter what you or I think is an acceptable sales goal. You can throw out any number you want and your opinion means nothing. It is all up to GM to determine how many they need to sell for it to remain viable. If they've published those numbers and they are 10k per year, then this would bolster your point. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what you or I think is a good amount. If gas prices keep climbing, my guess is that the Ute will be lucky to sell 5-7K units the first year and less than 5k the second year (after the newness has worn off).

Maybe I will buy one. Unlike you, whether I am going to buy it or not does not influence my opinion on whether the vehicle is good for GM or not (that is called being objective, my friend).

merchgod

03-16-2008, 10:14 PM

Bear in mind, there are 2 billion people in the US.
:eek2:

Dude, this isn't China. There's about 300 million people in the U.S. Maybe you'll need to revise your figures with this new information.

appletonrc

03-16-2008, 10:17 PM

The SSR is along the same lines as a G8 ute. The SSR was less functional, although sales were less than anticipated. No real loss trying it, they have the thing tooled up already in the Commodore Ute. (the same could be said for the wagon as well) I'm sure the interested people are as excited as I was when the G8 was announced.

chiefpontiac

03-16-2008, 10:23 PM

Just catching up. Thoughts.

GM would not be bringing the SprinT here if they had not already done the numbers. I know I am in line for one. Sure it'll cost $10k more than the Colorado I drive, but any 2 seater that returns 5.4 0-60 for less than $33k (projected price) is in a small exclusive club that even the Corvette can't join (it is faster but at least $15k higher) I am as excited about this "truck" as I am about the G8 itself.

GXP sports minor enough changes that it should not cost over $40k by any means and may beat that by 1-2 grand anyway (my guess, $38745) The all-season tires will not be free exchange, it'll cost at least $150, like current G8 models. I do expect both trannys to be same price, ala CTS.

Orbit Orange

03-16-2008, 10:34 PM

It doesn't matter what you or I think is an acceptable sales goal. You can throw out any number you want and your opinion means nothing. It is all up to GM to determine how many they need to sell for it to remain viable. If they've published those numbers and they are 10k per year, then this would bolster your point. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what you or I think is a good amount. If gas prices keep climbing, my guess is that the Ute will be lucky to sell 5-7K units the first year and less than 5k the second year (after the newness has worn off).

Maybe I will buy one. Unlike you, whether I am going to buy it or not does not influence my opinion on whether the vehicle is good for GM or not (that is called being objective, my friend).

If it doesn't matter what you or I say, why argue it? Sake of argument it seems. Numbers are quantities, they cannot be argued, opinion and feelings are qualities, they can. I bring out numbers (EX. one million sold) GM has a target sales number, we don't know what that is. As for your definition of success, profitable for GM. Are the Aveos profitable? They have some of the tiniest profit margin imaginable. They are there to bolster mileage totals. Guess what the ST could do the same vs. trucks(albeit not nearly as much), although that is not it's objective.

So, your argument is based on a car who last model sold 20 years ago? Oh and the Challenger hasn't been around for over 20 years as well and it is HOT HOT HOT. My comparison is VALID.

I can tell you aren't going to buy one because you are more concerned what everyone else thinks the ST is about. What a shame not to buy a fun and useful vehicle just because you think it will fail. As sccaGTO said it, it only has to succeed with it's target audience, that's all. Pontiac is slowly becoming a niche brand, it is no longer the 750K plus selling branch of decades past. Niche vehicles fill in a roll. GM will not lose money putting a new nose on the Ute and sending over 5 to 10K a year. (Unless the US dollar really continues to tank)

Maybe I will buy one. Unlike you, whether I am going to buy it or not does not influence my opinion on whether the vehicle is good for GM or not (that is called being objective, my friend).

Not buying it isn't going to help GM. You don't truly think that do you? I'll buy it on it's merits, not some perceived helpfulness to GM. We get it you don't THINK it will sell well, time to move on.

Orbit Orange

03-16-2008, 10:36 PM

sccaGTO

03-16-2008, 10:39 PM

:eek2:

Dude, this isn't China. There's about 300 million people in the U.S. Maybe you'll need to revise your figures with this new information.

Ok, I missed the population by a lot (303,631,185--according to www.census.gov). Even with that revised number & going through the same math equation I listed above, you will still have enough people to catch 10K Utes. As was said earlier, the SSR & Ute may both be niche vehicles, but the investment for the ST is substantially less. The SSR was a new body with a retracting hardtop (no other GM vehicle had one) based on a non sporty chassis. But, GM expected owners wanted a cruiser, not a bruiser. Since GMH sees a necessary market in OZ, they have invested the money. Exporting Utes elsewhere in the world gives them less investment for other manufacturers panels but a great helping of profit from sales.

sccaGTO

03-16-2008, 10:45 PM

Oh and the Challenger hasn't been around for over 20 years as well and it is HOT HOT HOT. My comparison is VALID.

Don't forget the Camaro & Mustang. They are copying themselves to sell new cars. Some customers may want a replica 1969 Camaro, not a copy of a 1969. There are companies (with GM's blessing) building exact replica bodies of first-gen Camaros for people that have deep pockets.

I'll buy it on it's merits, not some perceived helpfulness to GM.

That is the same thing '04-'06 GTO owners said when they drove off dealer lots. People wanted to argue about it's lack of "retro" design. But, they missed out on one of GM's best cars....ever.

GR8 G8

03-16-2008, 11:43 PM

I've been on the edge of my seat waiting for the GXP announcement. And based on what I see, it better not be more than a few grand more than the GT. If the price this thing over $35,000 I'll be buying a GT, slapping the GXP wheels on it, and modding the L67. Just my .02:burnout:

GR8 G8

03-16-2008, 11:46 PM

^^^^^^^^ That is assuming that they offer a M6 in the G8 Gt. I refuse to buy a sports car with an automatic.

bracketracer

03-17-2008, 08:02 AM

From everything I have read, it sounds like we have one choice if we want the manual, GXP. I would be perfectly happy with the L76 in a GT, which I could mod later, if it came with a manual transmission, but I doubt that we'll have them dilemna. I hope they can figure out a way to make the AFM work with a manual, and change that down the road, but I'm not holding my breath.

txbatman

03-17-2008, 08:31 AM

^^^^^^^^ That is assuming that they offer a M6 in the G8 Gt. I refuse to buy a sports car with an automatic.

You do realize that there is a huge expense in getting a car EPA certified with a manual, don' you?

Most Americans dont want a stick, especially in a full size sedan, especially with a V-8. So it really isn't cost effective to offer one. The GXP will get it, but that is a niche car. I doubt the Ute will get a manual.

After all, the 2004-2006 GTO sold 40.9% of its production as autos.
24,059 to 16,698. I think even 40% of vetts get a auto.

merchgod

03-17-2008, 09:03 AM

Not buying it isn't going to help GM. You don't truly think that do you? I'll buy it on it's merits, not some perceived helpfulness to GM. We get it you don't THINK it will sell well, time to move on.
Didn't mean to rain on anyone's parade. Some buyers want to be reassured that they made the right choice and get a little peeved when someone says something negative about the car they've chosen. For me, I could care less what someone else says. I mean, if you like the ST, why get your panties in a bunch over a simple discussion about whether or not it was a good decision for GM to bring it over? Never once did I say that no one should buy it or that it wasn't a worthy car - I was merely discussing the decision of GM to bring it over - period. And the argument that they wouldn't have brought it over unless it will be profitable is a worthless argument given that GM reported a $38 billion loss in 2007. GM doesn't always make great decisions from a financial standpoint. Again, a bad decision by GM doesn't mean the car is crap. If the G8 turns out to be a failure, I'll still be glad they made that bad decision, because as an enthusiast, it was good for me, even if it wasn't good for the company (I am not married to any one brand).

Anyway, I'll drop out of the discussion as it is turning into one of those where there's no way I'm going to convince you of any of my arguments (and no way you'll give on any of your points regardless). Kind of like an atheist and a priest arguing about the existence of God. Just remember, a car forum doesn't have to be a love fest where everyone is patting each other on the back about their great choice in cars. It can be about many things, including the decisions of a car manufacturer in trouble. And you don't have to take it as personal if something negative is said about GM or indirectly about the particular vehicle you've chosen to buy.

chiefpontiac

03-17-2008, 10:20 AM

GM doesn't always make great decisions from a financial standpoint.

Neither does Ford, paying $1000 bonus to workers they don't need with money they don't have.

Back on subject: pretty sure that the LS3 will not be an option in our ute - so no manny tranny for the truck. But what is so bad about 2 seats with 5.4 0-60 performance for less than $33k. And it has over 4 times the trunk capacity of a similarly priced similarly performing Solstice GXP just behind the seats.

Premium is recommended for the GXP - right from the GM news release. It also talks about unique camshaft and other internals that may or may not be the same as a regular 430 hp LS3. Without part numbers it may be impossible to tell. I wonder how much power the exhaust gas bypass valve in the 'vette is responsible for.

GR8 G8

03-17-2008, 10:32 AM

You do realize that there is a huge expense in getting a car EPA certified with a manual, don' you?

Most Americans dont want a stick, especially in a full size sedan, especially with a V-8. So it really isn't cost effective to offer one. The GXP will get it, but that is a niche car. I doubt the Ute will get a manual.

After all, the 2004-2006 GTO sold 40.9% of its production as autos.
24,059 to 16,698. I think even 40% of vetts get a auto.

:patriot: Well sir I am not most Americans. I cannot sit in a car and those so called "manumatic" transmissions and get the real feel of a car. The fast up shifts, the blip of the throttle for the quick down shifts; To me you just don't get the same driving experience in an automatic. I understand that most cars are auto (Including the Corvette), however if you look at the market (Sorry Chrysler/ Dodge), a lot of "sport sedans" offer manuals (ie. BMW, Mercedes, Audi....). I'll probably end up getting the GXP but I know it would be better for me financially to get the GT because I'm trying to buy a house and I don't make a whole lot of money.

glugo1001

03-17-2008, 10:39 AM

Count me as a prospective Ute buyer. I work in sales for a tire distributor. I provide my own vehicle. I travel mostly by myself, but occasionally with a factory rep. I would have good usage for a truck bed for occasional deliveries and/or carrying sample tires to show dealers. However, I don't want the dismal fuel mileage most trucks offer or the awful handling. I'm a car guy by nature and don't really like trucks. In addition to all the other small jobs a truck like this can do (runs to Home Depot, hauling furniture, etc), those are reasons this vehicle has tremendous appeal for me.

The downside: no back seat. I have two small kids that I carry frequently and not having a back seat could be a problem. This is why I was hoping for the wagon (even though I wouldn't have wanted to throw tires in the back of the wagon!). My other vehicle is a Pathfinder and I'm sure we could work around the no back seat issue. I'm just not sure. I'll have to wait and see when the Ute comes out.

P.S. I, for one would have liked to see this one badged as a GMC with the Holden face.

txbatman

03-17-2008, 10:52 AM

:patriot: Well sir I am not most Americans. I cannot sit in a car and those so called "manumatic" transmissions and get the real feel of a car. The fast up shifts, the blip of the throttle for the quick down shifts; To me you just don't get the same driving experience in an automatic. I understand that most cars are auto (Including the Corvette), however if you look at the market (Sorry Chrysler/ Dodge), a lot of "sport sedans" offer manuals (ie. BMW, Mercedes, Audi....). I'll probably end up getting the GXP but I know it would be better for me financially to get the GT because I'm trying to buy a house and I don't make a whole lot of money.

I understand the advantages of a stick. I'm just saying that it won't happen. With the weak US/AU dollar issue, the profit margin on these cars is pretty slim. And while all of the German manufacturers may offer a manual, how many of them actually sell one in this country? Other than a M class BMW or A/S4 Audi. not too many. And those guys can afford the increased cost because they just pass it onto the customer who pays the money without blinking.
This really isn't a sports car either. It can't afford to be percieved as one or it will lose sales. It has to appeal to a broader market than just us.

johnh

03-17-2008, 11:33 AM

higgledy

03-17-2008, 12:08 PM

jerminator

03-17-2008, 12:17 PM

I guess we'll never know. Personally, I'm not in the market for either, but if I had to pick one, I'd get the Sportwagon.

txbatman

03-17-2008, 12:57 PM

Am I the only one to question GM's logic with it deciding to not offer the G8 Sportwagon because the sales numbers "were not there" only to turn around and decide to bring the G8 El Camino, a product who's sales volume is an absolute guess. Is the market that much stronger for the Ute than the Sportwagon? Or might the Sportwagon eat into Acadia/Envoy sales?

Not that I don't like the G8 Ute but I would have liked the Sportwagon better.

Any thoughts?
Station wagons are just not popular right now. And yeah, you're probably right that the wagon would compete with the Enclave/Acadia/Outlook/Traverse. (remember that GM is consolidating dealerships so there would be a Buick enclave, a GMC Acadia and a Pontiac sport wagon, all on the same lot.)

Whereas the Ute will be unique. Nothing else out there like it. With the intention to only import 4-6,000 a year, they will all sell. The wagon was more iffy. After all the sportwagon club usually buys volvo's and want awd, something that won't happen with the G8.

The Ute also appeals to the muscle car buyer to some extent. The wagon would not.

No ConeSS

03-17-2008, 02:05 PM

For me, I love the GXP. I got all giddy looking at the 3 large pics on jalopnik. I must have read that article 3 times and still want to read it again.

I like the rework on the front facia. I like that it doesn't have super standout differences to the GT. I see where it is shipping w/ 245's, but the pics make it look like 275's on the rear (c'mon 19x9's!!!! I want some rubber!!)

I do wish that the GTS rear spoiler would be an option, not just the rear deck lip that's on there, but that is a small complaint that just the Brembo's alone (couldn't get 2-pistons out back?) take care of. LS3 and the TR6060!!!

I am most definitely going to consider trading the GTO in on this.

As far as the ST goes, it's not for me, but it's cool they are doing it for those that do want it.

As far as the SportWagon goes, I wish it would have come up, my wife and I would have waited for it, but she wanted a wagon, and without one on the horizon, we jumped ship and traded in her '05 Impala for an '07 Magnum R/T. People still want wagons, but it has become more of a niche market, not mainstream like the SUV's have. Just look at the Audi RS6... now THAT is a wagon!

I'll be counting the days until the GXP hits the showrooms.

BTW, I didn't read every post in this thread, so sorry if it has been posted, but are there interior pics of the G8 GXP?

chiefpontiac

03-17-2008, 02:14 PM

.

BTW, I didn't read every post in this thread, so sorry if it has been posted, but are there interior pics of the G8 GXP?

Not yet, wait until press day at New York.

No ConeSS

03-17-2008, 02:51 PM

Not yet, wait until press day at New York.

Thanks!

Also, reading the .pdf that DY posted, the wheels are 19x8's, so that's kind of a bummer, I was hoping for 9's all around. Oh well, not that it won't be an awesome car anyway!

glugo1001

03-17-2008, 02:51 PM

I hope they offer this sport bar as an accessory! :drool:

http://us.tnpv.net/2007/GMC200709/GMC2007092458326_PV.jpg

dltv

03-17-2008, 06:43 PM

Love the fact that its a LS3. The fact that it has 40 hp more isnt that great of a leap.

I too like the rework on the front fascia. Did you notice the antenna is different.

Give me the reworked fascia on GT with the HSV rims and I'm sold on the GT. Only thing to make it more impressive would be to two tone the interior.

G8>550i

03-17-2008, 07:02 PM

^^^^^^^^ That is assuming that they offer a M6 in the G8 Gt. I refuse to buy a sports car with an automatic.

The standard in a high performance sport sedan these days is paddleshifters, not manuals. Even the Euros are using them.

G8>550i

03-17-2008, 07:06 PM

Am I the only one to question GM's logic with it deciding to not offer the G8 Sportwagon because the sales numbers "were not there" only to turn around and decide to bring the G8 El Camino, a product who's sales volume is an absolute guess. Is the market that much stronger for the Ute than the Sportwagon? Or might the Sportwagon eat into Acadia/Envoy sales?

Not that I don't like the G8 Ute but I would have liked the Sportwagon better.

Any thoughts?

It is much cheaper to do the safety testing for the ute because the passenger compartment is not that different from the sedan. A wagon is much more expensive to certify as the window area in the back is part of the passenger compartment.

Also they are probably looking at the Ute in a 4 door version as something for GMC to sell to boost CAFE ratings. So they want to test the waters with the 2 door ute

mike c

03-17-2008, 07:14 PM

So...

Can I get that Orange color on the GXP?
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/03/medium_2334164464_e437d096a6_o.jpg

That color, those chromed wheels...

Also, a nice color matching/complementing two tone interior would also be nice....

That color is not listed yet for the '09 GT or Sedan. Have to wait until some of the details for the GXP are released to find out. They did drop the '08 ignition orange for '09 though.

Sluggz

03-17-2008, 07:52 PM

Maybe there will be some unique colors for the GXP.

sccaGTO

03-17-2008, 09:39 PM

Back on subject: pretty sure that the LS3 will not be an option in our ute - so no manny tranny for the truck. But what is so bad about 2 seats with 5.4 0-60 performance for less than $33k. And it has over 4 times the trunk capacity of a similarly priced similarly performing Solstice GXP just behind the seats.

There is talk from wishful members (not GM) about a GXP ST. Sounds like a stretch, but anything's possible. If they are planning a GXP ST, they had better show it during next year's auto show circuit. I don't want to buy an L76 Ute if they will offer me the 6M with the LS3 a month later.

The standard in a high performance sport sedan these days is paddleshifters, not manuals. Even the Euros are using them.

The reason the Euros use them so much is because they are girly men. They don't know how to enjoy the clutch pedal.

chill

03-17-2008, 09:46 PM

So...

Can I get that Orange color on the GXP?
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/03/medium_2334164464_e437d096a6_o.jpg

That color, those chromed wheels...

Also, a nice color matching/complementing two tone interior would also be nice....

dido, but you can keep the chrome wheels, give me black ccw classics and ill be ok ;)

chrish

Belo

03-18-2008, 07:25 AM

ST is 2010? I wonder if I can fit a 10 pt. buck in the bed? :)

No ConeSS

03-18-2008, 08:14 AM

The standard in a high performance sport sedan these days is paddleshifters, not manuals. Even the Euros are using them.

But don't most of those Euro paddle shift cars have a sequential manual gearbox? It's still a manual, just no clutch pedal.

PMD G8

03-18-2008, 09:01 AM

But don't most of those Euro paddle shift cars have a sequential manual gearbox? It's still a manual, just no clutch pedal.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. The paddle shifters on most cars including those on all GM cars(Grand Prix, Corvette, G8) are nothing more than an easier way to control an automatic transmissions shift points without taking your hands off the wheel.

Twin-clutch transmissions/gearboxes, like what Ferrari uses, don't have torque converters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin-clutch_gearbox

GregKJ

03-18-2008, 10:00 AM

The standard in a high performance sport sedan these days is paddleshifters, not manuals. Even the Euros are using them.

Paddleshifters isn't a type of transmission. The paddleshifter auto in the GXP is still an auto.

The reason the Euros use them so much is because they are girly men. They don't know how to enjoy the clutch pedal.

I don't think that your argument holds any merit. Just looks at the US vs European sales numbers of manual/autos. It sounds like you might be surprised.

jerminator

03-18-2008, 10:21 AM

will

03-18-2008, 12:15 PM

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. The paddle shifters on most cars including those on all GM cars(Grand Prix, Corvette, G8) are nothing more than an easier way to control an automatic transmissions shift points without taking your hands off the wheel.

Twin-clutch transmissions/gearboxes, like what Ferrari uses, don't have torque converters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin-clutch_gearbox

Nothing personal just a pet peeve of mine...Ferrari does not currently have a twin clutch gearbox, they are still using the conventional manual with the electronics attached to change gears. Only three companies have the faster twin clutch arrangements, the VW/Audi Group (soon to be bought by Porsche), Mitsubishi, and Nissan. Almost everyone is rumored to be working on them because they have the ability to please the most people and offer fuel mileage advantages over both automatics and manuals.

I would certainly take a twin clutch box over a torque converter automatic. In a daily driver I may take one over a manual, but in a sports car I would rather row my own gears, even if it is slower. Now I have to decide what the G8 is to me.

Sharper

03-18-2008, 12:59 PM

For me, it's not about what everybody else in the world wants. It's not about what is technologically better. It's not about how easy or hard my car might be to sell down the road.
It's about what I prefer and enjoy driving. I enjoy having a third pedal and I enjoy the feel engaging the clutch makes.

DITTO! I am 52 years old and still prefer to shift gears manually. I don't even own a vehicle with and auto trans (my wife prefers a manual as well)

BlueGoat

03-18-2008, 05:48 PM

I'm 64. Last car I owned with a slushbox as a personal DD was a '70 Plymouth GTX and I hated myself for getting the A3 rather than the M4. There followed a '75 Saab EMS M4, '82 Buick Skyhawk M4 (yeah, and 85HP L4 engine -- it was a money thing), '89 Olds Calais International Quad4 M5, '92 Pontiac GrandAm GT Quad4 HO M5, Pontiac TransAm M6, GTO M6. I'll have to take driving lessons to learn to drive the new G8 A6, but I'm keeping the Goat, so I won't drive it often. The G8 is the grocery hauler. Not all of us old fogeys are out to pasture.

etta87

03-18-2008, 08:47 PM

In all fairness .... 402 is underrated, just as the GT's 361 is under rated.

You can seriously take a manual G8 GXP and push mid 400's to the rear wheels with a few modifications and a tune. (headers/cam/tune).

Actually, 402 would be about right, because the SAE Engineer must be there to certify the engine so Pontiac/Chevy can't say "yeah it's a 425hp engine". Now when you dyno the thing and find about 15% loss through the drivetrain and come up with 340hp +/- you can say yeah that's about right and be happy.

Many moons ago I had an SRT4 Neon that dynoed 225 and the car was rated 235 or something like that. From a stocker I was plenty happy. Hell it went 13.70's with 10psi.

Me personally I'll take 400hp and watch M3's disappear in the rear view around the track.:gears:

etta87

03-18-2008, 09:40 PM

But don't most of those Euro paddle shift cars have a sequential manual gearbox? It's still a manual, just no clutch pedal.

That would be the BMW SMG which is very popular "over there", because they like to keep twohands on the wheel while driving. Plus they like all that whiz bang gizmo stuff. We need it to save our sorry butts from killing ourselves on the highway and byways. :)

The DSG box in the VW/Audi is similar too, but will automatically upshift if you try to bounce it off the limiter.

Hope that helps... :)

etta87

03-18-2008, 09:43 PM

The standard in a high performance sport sedan these days is paddleshifters, not manuals. Even the Euros are using them.

IE: new M5 has 11 settings for the transmission

etta87

03-18-2008, 09:45 PM

DuBob

03-19-2008, 08:57 AM

IE: new M5 has 11 settings for the transmission

That's typical of German car makers......over complicate things which means more to go wrong with them.

Camino LS6

03-19-2008, 01:23 PM

sccaGTO

03-19-2008, 04:51 PM

I don't think that your argument holds any merit. Just looks at the US vs European sales numbers of manual/autos. It sounds like you might be surprised.
Try to compare the manu-matic vs. a conventional manual. Part of the reason that maunals are more prevalent over there is simple fuel economy. Most European countries charge road taxes based upon engine size. So, a 1.5L 4-cylinder would benefit from as little parasitic loss as possible. The benefit of a small engine is better fuel economy.

Almost everyone is rumored to be working on them because they have the ability to please the most people and offer fuel mileage advantages over both automatics and manuals.

I would certainly take a twin clutch box over a torque converter automatic. In a daily driver I may take one over a manual, but in a sports car I would rather row my own gears, even if it is slower. Now I have to decide what the G8 is to me.
The DSG should be considered a marvel of our technology. It is a better mix of manual & automatic than a CVT trans is. I'm still trying to figure out why GM hasn't been more vocal about building them. Oh wait, I forgot. GM waits for everyone else to do it before deciding that it might be a good idea. :damnyou:

The DSG box in the VW/Audi is similar too, but will automatically upshift if you try to bounce it off the limiter.

Hope that helps... :)
This is an example of the car doing the work, just like a conventional AT. This is why (for me), a true 3 pedal manual trans will be the only way to control the shifting of gears.

That's typical of German car makers......over complicate things which means more to go wrong with them.
True. And, when German cars go bad, they go BAD. Too much to buy, too much to maintian, too much to repair.

PMD G8

03-19-2008, 08:22 PM

Does anyone have any videos from the Pontiac reveal today? I wanted to hear what Lutz had to say.

etta87

03-19-2008, 08:25 PM

True. And, when German cars go bad, they go BAD. Too much to buy, too much to maintian, too much to repair.

That goes for any car that is laden with technology, but many cars today are just that.

sccaGTO

03-19-2008, 08:55 PM

That goes for any car that is laden with technology, but many cars today are just that.

Well, compare the average BMW (any) to the average Pontiac (any). The BMWs will typically have more techno stuff. Like the saying goes: More stuff in it, more stuff to go wrong.

sccaGTO

03-19-2008, 09:05 PM

Does anyone have any videos from the Pontiac reveal today? I wanted to hear what Lutz had to say.

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/?fr_story=2c045d76e7e3235ebfab0e0701065541fbaa94b8

He said these 3 Pontiacs will be coming to a dealership this year. :gr_jest: I WISH!

BBBBGXP

03-19-2008, 09:19 PM

OK..........so that told us nothing we didn't know..........except I found it interesting that Maximum Bob said these cars will be at dealers this year! Did I hear that wrong, or what? I thought we had been told it would be 2009 before we'd see the UTE! Is that because his statement was a play on words and the cars will be here this year, while the Sport Truck will not be here until 2009?:dunno:

PMD G8

03-19-2008, 09:19 PM

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/?fr_story=2c045d76e7e3235ebfab0e0701065541fbaa94b8

He said these 3 Pontiacs will be coming to a dealership this year. :gr_jest: I WISH!

Wait wait wait wait wait. "they are heading to a Pontiac dealership near you this year." Bob Lutz. Does this mean that the G8 ST would be hear by the end of the year. Could Maximum Bob be incorrect in his statements?

Ugh.....50 FTL.

ChipC

03-19-2008, 09:24 PM

Maybe the ST will ship December 08 from Oz and heading to a dealer in 09.

Chip

PMD G8

03-19-2008, 09:32 PM

I really think Bob was getting ahead of himself, even Pontiac.com says late 2009.

BBBBGXP

03-19-2008, 09:36 PM

I really think Bob was getting ahead of himself, even Pontiac.com says late 2009.

Maybe the Boss has been reading at some of the forums on the G8 and feels he should light a fire under some butts to get the product out faster!?????

sccaGTO

03-19-2008, 09:48 PM

I heard the same thing you guys did. I think that 2 out of 3 will be here this year & Bob didn't discern the third as another year off.

Orbit Orange

03-19-2008, 09:59 PM

sccaGTO

03-19-2008, 10:10 PM

sccaGTO thanks for posting the link. :)

I think what he was trying to say is they are starting to show up this year. The guy is 70 plus years old after all.

If you look up the definition of awkward at Wikipedia, I think they will post the above link. Seeing 50 cent and Lutz and the other stuffed suit is about as polar opposite as you can get. Just weird and awkward. Get ready for the blinged out G8 ST much like the 50 cent G8 he "made". Anyone else get that awkward vibe from the video?

No prob on the link. I thought Fity's appearance didn't fit with the suits on stage. Plus, if Bob wanted "real-time" feedback from Pontiac owners, he should have asked if there was a GTO owner in the crowd. I almost :barf: when Fity said we might see one done his way. Oh no. Not another blingmobile. That's all I could think. Of course, if Bob wants to start selling 2010 G8 STs on Jan.1, 2009, I'll call that "this year".