Alright, so what do you think it'll take to get the L76 to 500bhp?
I would appreciate any info on typical power gains, reliability of, and price of any upgrades that will not blow the Pontiac warranty.

A supercharger should get the G8 to where I would like for it to be, but the whole Pontiac warranty is gone. Go with a Magnacharger and you'll get 3yr/36k on the hardware and the drivetrain too if you pay another $200. However, if things start acting up not covered by their definition of the drivetrain and your dealer tosses out your entire warranty, you're up a creek. Also, it's probably going to be $6-7k, which is a big chunk of change.

Well, that's the predicament that I'm thinking about. How do I get 500hp (or thereabouts) while keeping the Pontiac warranty and spending $4k or less?

To get up to 500hp, there is nothing you can do that would reach that point without voiding the warranty. You would have to do exhaust which would leave no factory exhaust parts for warranty, but you would have a warranty from the exhaust manufacturer. More than likely you would be straining the stock fuel injectors so you would probably have to go to 42lb injectors which would void lots more. Not to mention the tuning a lot so there goes pretty much everything else.

Under the act out there for warranties, whatever goes wrong, the company has to PROVE whatever you did to the car would effect what went wrong. Plus for 4k or less, that is pretty tough. You're looking at a good $1500 for an amazing full exhaust system.

Technically, you will put your warranty at risk when you make the changes to achieve 500Fwhp. Nitrous may be the easiest to reverse for warranty and achieve your goal of under $4K.

As for what it takes to void your warranty, that is probably up to you and your dealer. Some will give you grief over just a CAI. Others may go as far as headers before you have problems. Your part is how far are you willing to steadfastly push the Magnuson-Moss act. In other words, you may get more things warrantied, but it could take more of your time than just dropping it off at the dealer. At some point, you have to weigh your time vs. the cost. There are different breaking points for different folks.

One other thing. I would suggest those looking at the Maggie supercharger warranty actually read it before buying and be comfortable with it. I'm not complaining, but it has some limiting provisions around actual total reimbursement on engine and driveline failures. If you have some catastrophic failure (rare, but they do happen even on totally stock engines), you may still be out of pocket some serious dollars after the warranty has paid. Still a decent deal at $200. Again, not a complaint, but be aware what the risks are. It is not the same as the new car warranty by any stretch. As has been said, you gotta pay to play.

Chip

Technically, you will put your warranty at risk when you make the changes to achieve 500Fwhp.

Do you mean rwhp?

Do you mean rwhp?

No, Flywheel hp. yevot didn't specify, but I wanted to be clear about my assumption. We might be able to get fairly close to 500 hp at the engine with tunes, headers, cai. Not necessarily there, but close.

Well, we all know the cheapest way to get there.... Nitrous!

Yeah, I meant power at the engine, bhp, Fwhp, etc. I want to be able to keep a solid distance ahead of an M5 after mauling them off the line with all that beautiful torque.

Is 85hp/L that high for N/A? I was looking around at Ford's website and their Taurus makes 75hp/L and Hyundais, with their 10yr warranties, generally make 65-70hp/L. The upcoming Genesis will make 83hp/L out of the factory, for crying out loud! I know a lot of people get way over 100hp/L with forced induction. Don't get me wrong, 361hp will move the car pretty fast, but 60hp/L seems pretty low for a performance car. One of the reasons I like the G8 is that it has a 6.0L engine. It seems like it should be able to make a lot more power than it currently is while still being reliable (unlike 600hp on a 2.0L engine).

I don't mean to be unrealistic; I'm a n00b and don't know much about aftermarket power enhancements, ESPECIALLY the reliability of them.

What's a reliable boost level? 7psi or under?

Generally, you really cant do any mods that are going to increase your horsepower without voiding your warranty. The supercharger you list is an exception. Now if you have a dealer that will work with you, or know a dealer, etc then that a different matter. Technically the dealer can say about any high performance mods, that your abusing the vehicle and warranty is toast. If you accept that fact in regards to warranty, then you can do whatever you want. If you want 500hp to the flywheel then your going to have do a cam in my opinion. You can do some research at www.ls1tech.com in the dyno section to get ideas of what mods give you what kind of power increases for a 6.2L engine.

Here is a list of bolt ons and the approx horsepower increases. These are all things that can be done without replacing heads or cam. These are based on numbers gathered from the LS3. I am going to error on the side of conservative with my numbers and sense technically these mods have yet to be done on a L76 my numbers could be wrong. You can do the math but doing all the bolt on tricks I don't think your going to hit that number you want.
UD 25% pulley-8 HP
Ported Throttle Body- 8HP
Ported Intake-12 HP
Air Intake system-10 HP
Hi Lift Rockers-10 HP
Full Length Headers w/Cats-30 HP
Exhaust-10 HP
Tune-30HP(no longer a guess-see the tuning section)

With such a small cam though this engine could pick up major HP from a cam swap. So with a cam and select bolt ons, your number is very easy to meet. The nitrous suggestion is a good one as you could do a stealth type install and remove the whole kit if you need warranty work done.

As the others have mentioned anything that you change on your car is subject to voiding your warranty. The relationship you have with your local dealer plays a lot into this equation. I would, if you haven't already, ask the service manager at your local dealership what he/she feels about aftermarket modifications. Also ask how far you will be allowed to take your setup before it will not be covered. You might find, as some others have, that if your local dealership installs the aftermarket upgrades whey will uphold the warranty, just a thought.

Now to the numbers:

Stock L76 - 361HP at flywheel = 301.5Rwhp on average with 15-18% drivetrain loss due to 6-spd automatic, although the baseline numbers leaking out have been higher, this is just in principle.

500HP L76 at flywheel = 417.5Rwhp on average with 15-18% drivetrain loss due to 6-spd automatic.

SO, L76 needs an additional 116Rwhp to reach your goal of 500HP at the flywheel.

There are many ways to get there but sacrifices will be made and one of them might be the warranty...

Hope this helps you out.

As the others have mentioned anything that you change on your car is subject to voiding your warranty. The relationship you have with your local dealer plays a lot into this equation. I would, if you haven't already, ask the service manager at your local dealership what he/she feels about aftermarket modifications. Also ask how far you will be allowed to take your setup before it will not be covered. You might find, as some others have, that if your local dealership installs the aftermarket upgrades whey will uphold the warranty, just a thought.


This is key. Some dealerships will void the warranty because they observe something on the car (take the car in for AC problem, they see a nonfactory part underhood and void the engine warranty) while others will have that discussion only if you claim warranty on a related part. Discuss with your service manager now to get a feel. This is more art than science.

Chip

The few things that wont void your warranty include a catback and an intake. Neither of which can get you to 500bhp.

Honestly, I plan on doing those 2 ^, and a blower. But the blower will probably not come for a couple years (haha who am I kidding?)

I've been told that a dealer wont notice a cam/heads b/c they're internals. But any mechanic with 1/2 a brain could tell the difference as soon as he turns the engine over...

This is key. Some dealerships will void the warranty because they observe something on the car (take the car in for AC problem, they see a nonfactory part underhood and void the engine warranty) while others will have that discussion only if you claim warranty on a related part. Discuss with your service manager now to get a feel. This is more art than science.

Chip

They can't do that though, its illegal.

Also, don't worry about HP per Liter. It's a stupid stat and is totally meaningless. The size of the engine is irrelevant. A DOHC engine is physically bigger than a OHV engine. Power is power no matter what. Sure those Honda engines make more HP/L. The S2000 makes the most HP/L per any N/A production car at 120HP/L. But it still only makes 240HP. 240HP is 240Hp no matter how you stack it. Oh and the torque is a measly 153. My Mazda makes 89 HP/L (turbo'd) but its still slow.

Here is an example of the size difference. A mustang 5.0 Liter OHV compared in size to a 4.6L DOHC.
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2528/motor464v004yq7.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=motor464v004yq7.jpg)

IMO for 500 at the crank, the basics would do it: a mild 220 or 224 cam, heads, headers and tune. You could probably do it with an aggressive cam, headers, catback and tune, but you would also need a higher stalled converter.

On a side note how do these heads flow compared to the other stock LSx heads?

IMO for 500 at the crank, the basics would do it: a mild 220 or 224 cam, heads, headers and tune. You could probably do it with an aggressive cam, headers, catback and tune, but you would also need a higher stalled converter.

On a side note how do these heads flow compared to the other stock LSx heads?

They are L92 heads. They flow better than 90% of the stuff out there. They are still trying to get the cams down for these heads. The flow a lot different than LS2 heads.

They can't do that though, its illegal.



You are right, but it has happened in the past. I seem to remember Mazda even going to the extreme of scouting an autocross and voiding warranties of any cars participating without telling the owners until they claimed warranty service. It's wrong and possibly not legal, but you will still have to spend the time to fight your case. Again, talking to the service manager now will at least let you know where you will stand if a problem arises once you have the G8 and have performed mods.

Chip

You are right, but it has happened in the past. I seem to remember Mazda even going to the extreme of scouting an autocross and voiding warranties of any cars participating without telling the owners until they claimed warranty service. It's wrong and possibly not legal, but you will still have to spend the time to fight your case.

Chip

I read that Mitsubishi did the same thing when the first Evos hit US shores. And lets not forget when Pontiac tempted us with GTO ads that showed full acceleration runs & smokey burnouts, then voiding warranties if there was any clue that you ran it hard.

STS Turbo - C6 Corvette (http://www.ststurbo.com/c6_corvette_)

I saw one of those shows on the Speed channel put one of these on a new Corvette, LS2 though, but definitely some pretty impressive results.

i love how people want 500hp, and still have the car be under warranty...You beat the crap out of the car, then bitch when something breaks and you have to pay for it...Just mod your car the way you want, and fix it if it breaks...That's the game, you break it, you bought it... :)

My answer though, would be a 200 shot of nitrous, then when it blows take out the bottle and everything else :)

i love how people want 500hp, and still have the car be under warranty...You beat the crap out of the car, then bitch when something breaks and you have to pay for it...Just mod your car the way you want, and fix it if it breaks...That's the game, you break it, you bought it... :)

My answer though, would be a 200 shot of nitrous, then when it blows take out the bottle and everything else :)

First off, love the thought you put into your "user name".

But if you are halfway serious, consider, GM Engine CSI can tell exactly what killed your car and will be more than eager to deny your NOX-induced failure.

i love how people want 500hp, and still have the car be under warranty...You beat the crap out of the car, then bitch when something breaks and you have to pay for it...Just mod your car the way you want, and fix it if it breaks...That's the game, you break it, you bought it... :)

My answer though, would be a 200 shot of nitrous, then when it blows take out the bottle and everything else :)


This post is confusing. The first part is what ALL people should do and think. And the second part is the reason so many dealerships want to jack up the prices of vehicles and deny claims. I hope you are kidding about the 2nd part of your post.

No dealer can void an entire warranty because of an aftermarket product. I put a turbo on they can't tell me we won't fix your broken a/c unless they can prove the turbo did it. They may try but I am willing to bet most will back off if you actively pursue it with a lawyer.

You have to pay to play!

Luckily for me I got in good with the sales person and they said if I have any service or tech problems let them know and they will handle. Of course if I break something and it's because of something I did or put on I will definitely be the one paying out of my pocket.

Since I'm mostly worried about the transmission, what are preventative steps to upgrade the transmission for extra power? What's the weakest link?

Would you recommend seeking out upgrades to prevent damage or reactionary steps to fix one once you broke it (assuming, perhaps, that it is underrated and could handle the power)?

As discussed in the other thread about the transmission.the 6sp tranny is HEAVY duty....unless your adding over 200 hp...dont worry about how the tranny will hold up.it will...get the TCM upgrade...and start smokin thouse Srt8s

The last few (maybe 6) months of "HOT ROD" had a series of articles that outlined getting the most power possible out of a GM truck motor with a stock bottom end. It may help.

Since I'm mostly worried about the transmission, what are preventative steps to upgrade the transmission for extra power? What's the weakest link?

Would you recommend seeking out upgrades to prevent damage or reactionary steps to fix one once you broke it (assuming, perhaps, that it is underrated and could handle the power)?

Biggest tranny cooler you can fit,change the fluid over to synthetic, and a get a tune on the tranny to quicken up the shifts.

The last few (maybe 6) months of "HOT ROD" had a series of articles that outlined getting the most power possible out of a GM truck motor with a stock bottom end. It may help.
There was some good info about it on their website--thanks!

Biggest tranny cooler you can fit,change the fluid over to synthetic, and a get a tune on the tranny to quicken up the shifts.
I'll have to look into that a bit more. Thanks.

An after market intake and a nitrous kit should work fine. If you ever have any issues just take it all off and put the stock intake on and your ready for warranty work :)

An after market intake and a nitrous kit should work fine. If you ever have any issues just take it all off and put the stock intake on and your ready for warranty work :)

You do realize that is part of the reason cars cost so much now. People do things like that and break something, take it off and then expect the dealer to cover it. They build repair costs into the purchase price of the vehicle. Way to be honest. :nono:

You do realize that is part of the reason cars cost so much now. People do things like that and break something, take it off and then expect the dealer to cover it. They build repair costs into the purchase price of the vehicle. Way to be honest. :nono:
:mswerd:
My question was asking how I can remain within warranty and approach 500hp, not how to get the power by blowing my warranty in such a method that I can remove and deceive my dealer. If something goes wrong that isn't my fault, my dealer needs to replace it, but if something goes wrong because of something I did, I'll be a man and pay for it myself.

:mswerd:
My question was asking how I can remain within warranty and approach 500hp, not how to get the power by blowing my warranty in such a method that I can remove and deceive my dealer. If something goes wrong that isn't my fault, my dealer needs to replace it, but if something goes wrong because of something I did, I'll be a man and pay for it myself.

Yevot
I'm gona make this real simple for you brother and its the only good answer that nobody put up.

If you want to keep you full waranty per dealer spec you are going to have to leave your car stock.

If you want to modify the car then consider your waranty void , and have fun with her.

Its just one of those things with a yes or no answer and about a hundred miles of gray area in between.

Now if you choose to address the "gray area" here goes, Should your dealer decide that your cold air intake blew up your motor, due to the change in air flow dynamics of the air as it passes over the maff sensor. And you decide to fight that, please keeo this in mind. You are challenging GM. My guess is that GM will probably have one or 2 or 15 lawyers come out and make there point known.

On a brighter note we feel that its going to be very easy building a 460rwhp daily driver, reliable, and fully smog legal system out of these cars.

I will have a sample of this shortly and I think we're all gona get some answers to some of our questions.

Hope my rant helped

G-night
Mike Haddad

^^^ My interest is peaked. Is that with out a blower?

I've been told that a dealer wont notice a cam/heads b/c they're internals. But any mechanic with 1/2 a brain could tell the difference as soon as he turns the engine over...

No, but if such a component were to fail, once they pull it out and examine... "Gee, this isn't a stock cam...." ;)

You do realize that is part of the reason cars cost so much now. People do things like that and break something, take it off and then expect the dealer to cover it. They build repair costs into the purchase price of the vehicle. Way to be honest. :nono:

Honesty is a "virtue" that's been long forgotten........:nonono:

I've been told that a dealer wont notice a cam/heads b/c they're internals. But any mechanic with 1/2 a brain could tell the difference as soon as he turns the engine over...

That's not correct. There are many cams for the LS/L series engine that are stealthy in their idle quality that are made by various vendors and it would be very very difficult to know it was cammed just listening to the engine.

No, but if such a component were to fail, once they pull it out and examine... "Gee, this isn't a stock cam...." ;)

Unless you use a stock gm cam like a ls3 or ls7.

^^^ My interest is peaked. Is that with out a blower?

Sure

But plan on spending a little more money than you would for the blower.

We've got 4 ls1 cars that make over 440rwhp smog legal and we've got a couple of ls2 cars that are makin 460rwhp smog legal. (BTW thats California smog). I don't see why the L76 should not perform just as good if not better than an ls3.

Special note: If you purhased an l76 car your a small step ahead in the case of boost. Its nearly half a point lower than the ls3 and the ls2.

I'm gona be boostin for now.

Thanks
Mike Haddad

If you want to keep you full waranty per dealer spec you are going to have to leave your car stock.

If you want to modify the car then consider your waranty void , and have fun with her.

Its just one of those things with a yes or no answer and about a hundred miles of gray area in between.
Thanks for the reply. It's that gray area that I'm wondering about, wondering how much power you'd be able to pull out of it using the less potent upgrades that most dealers will let slide by, but from what I've heard, it just depends on your dealer and your relationship with him.

Chances are that exhaust and intake are not going to be a huge issue. Like others say it's up to the dealer on how big of a stink they want to raise about them.

Time to bring this back to life.
Does anyone have a 500 hp (to the engine) set up without using a blower/turbo kit yet?
Care to share?

Time to bring this back to life.
Does anyone have a 500 hp (to the engine) set up without using a blower/turbo kit yet?
Care to share?
I have a combination presently that puts down 450+ rwhp/530 flywheel hp without forced induction. It runs a Vector cam/cnc'd heads/Kook's 1 3/4 LT headers/Roto-Fab/underdrive pulley/Vector tune. Just picked it up from Vector a couple of days ago, so no E.T.'s yet.

I agree with pay to play, you break you buy, speed costs money-how fast do you want to go and how much do you want to pay.
A cat-back and cold air intake should be ok. I even got away with a trans rebuild under warranty on my 02 Camaro SS caused by getting too aggressive with the tune.

If something happens to the engine or rest of the drivetrain and you have more than a cat-back and cold air intake, be ready to pay for it.
I would look at it as an excuse to upgrade whatever breaks.
Other parts of the car (A/C, electrical, etc) will still be covered.

With the G8 GT it seems around 430-450hp is where the men are seperated from the boys, you forget about the warranty, and start shelling out big bucks. I'll probably never go that far :(

The service manager at my dealership actually has a modded g8 himself. Told me he doesn't care what i do to my car, he won't void my warranty.

I'ts all up to the dealership, find one thats ok with upgrades and you'll be fine. My guy even asked me were he can get some of my mods.

Most will even install the parts for you... for a nominal fee of course.