Tony Hyde was the Executive Director of Engineering at Holden for the last 10 years, and has been a GMH man for 39 years. He retired last month and Wheels magazine interviewed him. Tucked away in the interview was this pearl of wisdom.

"GM has been telling American journalists that the just released Pontiac G8 was in the Zeta program from the beginning. Hyde laughs at the suggestion. In fact, the idea to stick a Pontiac grille on the VE was taken only after the GM board drove pilot-build versions of the new Commodore at the Warren Proving Ground in July 2006. Pontiac wanted the car, like yesterday, so Hyde and his team had little more that a year to sort out the engineering requirements."

So, that means that the first VE Commodores were being shipped to dealers before Pontiac even thought of having a G8. As XM is not available in Australia, HUD is not popular, and the Satnav was never designed for US use, no wonder they didn't make the first version.

Insight/comments make sense. I just got mine and am happy GM decided to bring the G8 to the US.

Ah hah. The info comes out.

Now if they listen to our pleas they'll engineer HUD in as a running change option.

so wait, SATELLITE radio doesn't work in Australia? lol!

No disrespect meant for Mr. Hyde, but do you guys really believe that info? Don't. Just to set the record straight:

Fact. The US GM team began meeting with their Holden counterparts in late 2002. The plan at that time was to build a Pontiac sedan off VE Commodore and a VE-based GTO replacement if the business case issues could be overcome on the coupe.

Fact. The Pontiac design on the Sedan was virtually complete in spring, 2003. In fact, the first US marketing design clinic was held that summer in California. The car did very well with respondents, who were rating the exterior styling versus competitors.

Fact. The plan was to build both sedan and coupe in North america, not in Oz.

Fact. The original powertrain plan was to use the 3800 V6 and a 4-speed auto trans in the base model, despite Holden using the twin-cam 3.6L in the Commodore and despite the protestations of Pontiac Marketing, who knew that would never be competitive in the US marketplace.

Fact. Both the sedan and coupe versions were shelved for the US in spring, 2005, when the business cases could not be justified for a North American build. Nothing wrong with the cars; the assembly plant assignments forced too much tooling costs.

Fact. The reason the G8 is being built in Oz and shipped to the US has a lot to do with a softening of large car sales in the home (Australian) market which left excess capacity available for Pontiac.

Fact. The coupe (Monaro), or Coupe 60 to you guys, was complete (and gorgeous) in early 2003 in the Holden design studio. It was so pure of line/form, not festooned with side exhausts, funky splitters and hood vents like the Sydney show car.

Fact. A replicated full-size coupe clay was made in the US design studios. Designers were told to add old GTO exterior cues, so they set about adding hood scoops, a rear spoiler, split grilles and large twin exhausts. In my view, they ruined the Holden design in pursuit of the retro GTO.

we just got schooled

Oh, why aren't more US options offered on the G8? Simple, really.

Holden was well along with VE definition/development before the US group intervened, plus, the Commodore was Holden's most important entry in their market, so there was little appetite for major product changes to suit US customers, especially when they had major packaging implications, like HUD does (a big I/P tear-up; we looked into it) and factory navigation (Holden has it, but what they have won't work in the US). Same with paddle shifters; too many revisions to accommodate Pontiac's wishes.

Wasn't it the October 2006 edition of Motor Trend where they said that Holden was pleading their case to the board to have GM bring the VE over to the states to replace the caprice and add one to the pontiac line? Seems that rlsedition may have a point or two that it was dropped for a bit of time from the thoughts of Pontiac.

Oh, why aren't more US options offered on the G8? Simple, really.

Holden was well along with VE definition/development before the US group intervened, plus, the Commodore was Holden's most important entry in their market, so there was little appetite for major product changes to suit US customers, especially when they had major packaging implications, like HUD does (a big I/P tear-up; we looked into it) and factory navigation (Holden has it, but what they have won't work in the US). Same with paddle shifters; too many revisions to accommodate Pontiac's wishes.

Thanks on the Nav. You had mentioned the HUD before, but I always wondered how they missed the NAV. That makes sense.

Chip

Wasn't it the October 2006 edition of Motor Trend where they said that Holden was pleading their case to the board to have GM bring the VE over to the states to replace the caprice and add one to the pontiac line? Seems that rlsedition may have a point or two that it was dropped for a bit of time from the thoughts of Pontiac.

I would hope he does sense he had involvement during a portion of that whole story.

Okay, so one of 4 things as resulted in 2 different stories.

1. Tony Hyde was not being truthful or was being deliberately vindictive towards GM when interviewed. I find this hard to believe, as he was globally one of the most respected Holden employees. I could not see why he has an axe to grind.

2. rlsedition has invented some facts. I also find this hard to believe as I suspect (although I do not know) he has some inside info.

3. Wheels magazine has either misquoted Tony Hyde or quoted him out of context. I believe this is the most probable reason, but still seems hard to believe. Peter Robinson, who wrote the article, also wrote the story of the VE, and had significant inside information. Maybe a bit of patriotism getting in the way of the facts ?

4. Everyone is correct. Pontiac were involved in the beginning, then jumped off before the period where the interior design and driver interface were finalised.

How else do you account for the lack of design thought on these 3 specifically North American requirements ?

Could be 4.
Remember that they kept saying how the VE was designed to meet US design requirements, I guess they mean safety etc, that lead to the change in the fuel tank position etc.
I would have thought that after the GTO got up they would have done Pontiac styling 'impressions' from the start. If not full styling work they surely would have had some sketches and an idea of the Pontiac direction sorted. Stupid not to really.
However, specific items could have been left out if Pontiac had jumped off and not got back onboard until later it the piece.

No facts were "invented" by me. I was there. I'm just trying to clarify what happened and I don't believe setting the situation straight would have any negative ramifications for GM at this point, which I still care about.

I find rsledition's inside info fascinating and have to believe what he is saying is closer to the truth. Folks, do you believe that Pontiac in mid 2006 had no real plans for what would be their flagship sedan? No way. I'd be willing to bet Mr Hyde is voicing some spin. Maybe his ozzy ego doesn't like the great press the G8 is getting and feels Holden isn't getting its due???

No disrespect meant for Mr. Hyde, but do you guys really believe that info? Don't. Just to set the record straight:

Fact. The US GM team began meeting with their Holden counterparts in late 2002. The plan at that time was to build a Pontiac sedan off VE Commodore and a VE-based GTO replacement if the business case issues could be overcome on the coupe.

Fact. The Pontiac design on the Sedan was virtually complete in spring, 2003. In fact, the first US marketing design clinic was held that summer in California. The car did very well with respondents, who were rating the exterior styling versus competitors.

Fact. The plan was to build both sedan and coupe in North america, not in Oz.

Fact. The original powertrain plan was to use the 3800 V6 and a 4-speed auto trans in the base model, despite Holden using the twin-cam 3.6L in the Commodore and despite the protestations of Pontiac Marketing, who knew that would never be competitive in the US marketplace.

Fact. Both the sedan and coupe versions were shelved for the US in spring, 2005, when the business cases could not be justified for a North American build. Nothing wrong with the cars; the assembly plant assignments forced too much tooling costs.

Fact. The reason the G8 is being built in Oz and shipped to the US has a lot to do with a softening of large car sales in the home (Australian) market which left excess capacity available for Pontiac.

Fact. The coupe (Monaro), or Coupe 60 to you guys, was complete (and gorgeous) in early 2003 in the Holden design studio. It was so pure of line/form, not festooned with side exhausts, funky splitters and hood vents like the Sydney show car.

Fact. A replicated full-size coupe clay was made in the US design studios. Designers were told to add old GTO exterior cues, so they set about adding hood scoops, a rear spoiler, split grilles and large twin exhausts. In my view, they ruined the Holden design in pursuit of the retro GTO.

Your story sounds logical. No way they could do the G8 in one year. What is more likely is that the FINAL approval came maybe a year ago, but that would only be possible if most of the design was in place. Heck just to get it past US regs would take months, I bet.

Also Lutz has been the man pushing this. He came on board around 2002, I believe, and was pushed to find a new direction for Pontiac as a budget BMW. RWD was key to this, and OZ was the only place in GM to get it for cars at that time.

As for building the car in N. America...they could easily do this in the future in the factory set to build the Camaro. Plus at that time there was discussion of a RWD Impala, which would easily fit alongside the G8. (RWD Impala killed by CAFE). You are right that now there is some excess capacity in OZ, so the G8 will fill it and keep the Commodore plant operating at maximum efficiency.

In any case, I'm glad the G8 is coming now, as my CTS lease is nearly up.

if RLS says its fact, it is.

Chris,

Thanks for the supporting comments. I just got tired seeing half-truths and worse on this forum.

Hi,
I work at Holdens engine plant which builds the V6 used in the G8. I can tell you that it was a rushed job to get the G8 out. We only had a year to change the engine so that it would not ice up in the northern states. We do not have the cold that you have and all our other export countries are warm to hot (The car has a great air conditioner).

There was fixes still been made to the engine such as heat shields just weeks before start of production.

The commodore was designed for US regs but GM canceled the Zeta for the US early on saying that the platform would be to expensive for Pontiac. It was going to be made in Canada and probably an American designed body. But GM was cash strapped and SUV's were selling better then sedans. So they dropped the Zeta and refreshed the SUV's. They only Ok ed it after driving the commodore after it was released in Australia. The GM brass had no idea how good the commodore was until it was released.

pretty sure i read somewhere that the reason Sat-Nav isn't offered, is it sits too low in the dash for American regulations....

i thought it was weird until i went to the motorshow, and almost all cars that have large-ish screens, have them mounted right at the top of the instrument panel!

while it would be a massive re-design of the panel, it could be a big push for Holden to update earlier than expected?

rlsedition, I was in no way questioning your information, but simply putting forward why 3 usually reliable sources could present different versions of the same event. As I said, I suspect that the most likely answer is that the information in the report in Wheels presented facts, but not all the facts, and was prabaly done with a focus on an Aussie audience.

Thanks for your enlightenment.

Isszy,

While in Melbourne I fell in love with the city. Similar to Toronto in some ways (except, of course, the climate). No problems driving on the "wrong" side of the road. I would go back in a minute.

Let us know if you do - I'm sure I can find a beer to two to share.

As far as the HUD goes, I don't really consider that to be a standard U.S. requirement. There aren't that many cars that have them - correct me if I'm wrong.

The lack of a Nav system or an XM/Siruis-capable radio is more telling. They're both pretty much being taken for granted, at least as available options.

As far as the HUD goes, I don't really consider that to be a standard U.S. requirement. There aren't that many cars that have them - correct me if I'm wrong.

The lack of a Nav system or an XM/Siruis-capable radio is more telling. They're both pretty much being taken for granted, at least as available options.

You are correct. However, if you look at the cars that were in the Pontiac lineup in the G8 position (Bonneville and Grand Prix), those cars were offered with HUD. In fact, the HUD goes back through three generations of the Grand Prix (unsure on the Bonneville?), so it had become something of a standard with Pontiac owners. It is funny that BMW and a few others are starting to offer HUDs now just at the point Pontiac is unable to offer it. HUD will be one of those things that you don't know that you like until you try it.

I believe that Nav and sat radio are more of what the rest of the market expects and will miss. At 40,000 units annually, there may be enough buyers that will not be deterred by a lack of those features that sales will not be impacted.

Chip

Ah, I wasn't aware that HUDs went that far back on Pontiacs. Thanks for filling me in.

It's a Holden first and foremost and will have Holden features, not Pontiac features.

Nothing surprising here.

No facts were "invented" by me. I was there. I'm just trying to clarify what happened and I don't believe setting the situation straight would have any negative ramifications for GM at this point, which I still care about.

Tell us a little about the Ute. I've been following Lutz and his dealings with Holden since the GTO was announced years ago.

From all the stories I read in the Aussie press it sounded like he favored importing the Ute originally had it not been dashed by the US chicken tax on imported trucks, later repealed by the US-AU FTA.

Was the Ute always intended for Pontiac too?

Thanks to the guys Down Under for all of your input, we appreciate it. :judge:

Wondering... XM and Bluetooth were both was supposed to be in the 2009's, then Bluetooth mysteriously disappeared from the build/order sheet for the '09 G8. Does anyone know what happened?

I can't tell you too much about Lutz and the Ute. When I was on the program the focus was the VE sedan (G8) and the coupe (GTO). The Ute was already styled, as was the wagon version, so we knew those might be possible eventually in a VE-based portfolio.

Rather unfortunate about the GTO. That Coupe60, minus the show-only side-exhausts, hood vents and rear diffuser and with a Pontiac split grille, was the GTO coupe. Chevy, like they did in so many programs shared with Pontiac, muscled their way in and took over with the new Camaro, displacing the GTO.
I doubt the GTO will return in that form, as all the exterior body panels are unique from the sedan, making the business case difficult with miniscule coupe sales volume. The fact they have shown the Coupe60 to the public tells me its dead as a production vehicle.

I doubt the GTO will return in that form, as all the exterior body panels are unique from the sedan, making the business case difficult with miniscule coupe sales volume. The fact they have shown the Coupe60 to the public tells me its dead as a production vehicle.

The original Monaro business case was given the green light with production figures of 5000 a year over three years. Holden can make money on build figures that low. Selling another 16,000 a year in the states was a big bonus.
If Holden was still semi autonomous then the coupe would get the go ahead. They would make money on it here in Australia, the middle east and England. But now decisions are made in the states.

Hi,
I work at Holdens engine plant which builds the V6 used in the G8. I can tell you that it was a rushed job to get the G8 out. We only had a year to change the engine so that it would not ice up in the northern states. We do not have the cold that you have and all our other export countries are warm to hot (The car has a great air conditioner).



can you explain how that engine is different from the one used in Cadillacs from 2003-04 up to today new CTS and SRX ? How they have been using that engine for so long and now they need modifications for it not to freeze up? I tried to compare those two engines side by side and I'm having trouble finding any differences at all.