This deals with topics that could be on a few different topics, so I wasn't sure where to put it, but mods, feel free to move wherever.

I heard this morning that, assuming everyone hits their targets with timing, the G8 w/ automatic should be in the US in October, with the V8-variant coming approximately 6 months later :banghead:

Maybe that means a G8 GXP?

:gears:

"I heard this morning that, assuming everyone hits their targets with timing, the G8 w/ automatic should be in the US in October"

Source?
- Ray
Very interested.......

I spoke with my dealer, and that's the best info they could give me

I work in gm powertrain engineering - I overhead it in one of the meetings I attend

Verrr - ry interesting.
Thanks,
- Ray
Thinking that introduction time frame makes more sense to me than January, given the timing of the information release....

To be a fly on the wall....
Could be good news. October is earlier than I was expecting for the car. March/April is about what I was expecting for the V8 manual. The motor stuff sounds good.

Verrr - ry interesting.
Thanks,
- Ray
Thinking that introduction time frame makes more sense to me than January, given the timing of the information release....


This is course will be assuming that everyone hits their timing targets....To be safe, I won't be holding my breath before November probably. Something inevitably always comes up

I work in gm powertrain engineering - I overhead it in one of the meetings I attend

I am all for sooner rather than later, but...

Be careful what you post. I am sure others at work are watching this and other forums. I know for a fact that certain powers that be do not take kindly to premature information leakage that they do not initiate.

Just the other day it was supposedly firmed up that production was going to start in October, which is later than the original August we first heard. But, hey, the biggest engineering hurdle was the North America bumper and front fascia. Getting teh car past EPA should be a breeze for the V8 as it is an American-built engine, teh V6 might be different - isn't it built in Oz?

And speaking of the front bumper...Is it too late to request the Ozzie version? I know this is going to be a Pontiac product, but the signature chrome-outlined grille isn't working for me. The hood intakes look boy-racer too. Don't get me wrong- I love the concept and the rest of the car- Including the wheel arches. This car appeals to me because I can fast-ball it past my boss and wife (my other boss) because it's a four door. Too many import-like add-ons make the sell that much harder. Take a hard look at the Holden- That's exactly what I'd want the G8 front end to look like.

For a point of reference, my current car is a Volvo S60R and my prior car was a BMW 540i Sport. I'm pretty sure I fit squarely into Pontiac's demographic.

Anyone have any info on the LS3? links?

Thank you for sharing insider info but do be careful, as achieftain just said I don't think they would be fond of classified info leaking out.

With the release of the LS3 in the C7 I think they will step up and feature it in the G8 but before then, using the L76 for the auto and the L98 for the manual does sound unreasnoable seeing as the only difference between them is cylinder deactivation.

Thank you for sharing insider info but do be careful, as achieftain just said I don't think they would be fond of classified info leaking out. With the release of the LS3 in the C7 I think they will step up and feature it in the G8 but before then, using the L76 for the auto and the L98 for the manual does sound unreasnoable seeing as the only difference between them is cylinder deactivation.

does not sound unreasonable?

I'd like to see them go with a non-AFM version for the manual. It has got to be a cheaper engine to produce, and it would make changing heads/cam easier without having to deal with the AFM system

But for matters of economy fuel economy, AFM will become the norm on most V-engines of 8 or more cylinders. I just went through some scary calculations on GGT (gas guzzler tax) and found that every hemi-powered Charger and 300C (with AFM) should be subject to GGT to the tune of at least $1000. http://suvs.about.com/od/fueleconomy/a/jf_gasguzzler.htm
Except when interpreted by the government. http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420b06009.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

According to the regulations, Dodge, 350hp hemi for 2007 gets 17/25 city/highway, which works out to 20.6 mpg combined, under the minimum 22.5 and subject to GGTof at least $1300. Grand Prix GXP with 303hp V8 and AFM gets 18/27 and 22.05 combined, and should on the surface see a tax of $1000.

But, as they say, all's fair in love and taxes. The numbers on the car sticker ARE NOT THE NUMBERS observed in the tests. Window stickers reflect 10% and 22% lower city/highway than the lab results. And, fortunately for us, the GGT is based on the lab results. So according the lab, the Charger gets 24.8 (by my calculations) and avoids the tax.

Now the tax is supposed to be collected from the manufacturer, after the model year has ended, and therfore should be paid out of net profits for the company, and not tacked on, like it was with the GTO, up front for all to see. Sure GM will pass the tax along to customers, and maybe it would be better displayed up front as maybe that would help consumers choose. But certainly without AFM the GGT might be a reality on th eG8. BTW, the 2006 GTO's test combined number for GGT was 21.0, $1300 tax.

Very interesting achieftan. I didn't realize their were "EPA numbers" and "Lab numbers"

The whole fuel economy standard is very outdated anyway. If you look at how the test is run:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

The vehicles just barely touch 60mph, occasionally, and the acceleration ramps are such that vehicles like the G8/GTO/etc can very easily make them under very low loads. Because it's a federal test, it has to be applicable to every vehicle, but that means that it can't force you to accelerate to 60 any faster in a GTO than you can in a 3-cylinder geo metro. I guess fuel economy numbers are good for comparisons sake, but manufacturers understand how they work, and I imagine they will undoubtedly use as much fuel as necessary to get as much power as possible at higher rpm's on higher-powered cars

Very interesting achieftan. I didn't realize their were "EPA numbers" and "Lab numbers"

The whole fuel economy standard is very outdated anyway. If you look at how the test is run:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

The vehicles just barely touch 60mph, occasionally, and the acceleration ramps are such that vehicles like the G8/GTO/etc can very easily make them under very low loads. Because it's a federal test, it has to be applicable to every vehicle, but that means that it can't force you to accelerate to 60 any faster in a GTO than you can in a 3-cylinder geo metro. I guess fuel economy numbers are good for comparisons sake, but manufacturers understand how they work, and I imagine they will undoubtedly use as much fuel as necessary to get as much power as possible at higher rpm's on higher-powered cars

But there are significant changes ( finally ) for 2008:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

2006 GTO A4
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=21855

2006 GTO M6
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=21856

The site lets you look up what you get under the new and old systems. It isn't unreasonable to think the automatic will get the DOD or AFM and the manual not. The stick driver may be willing to pay the tax for that extra couple thousandths of response by not having the fuel saver system, and whatever weight or parasitic drag penalty having the system adds.

This deals with topics that could be on a few different topics, so I wasn't sure where to put it, but mods, feel free to move wherever.

I heard this morning that, assuming everyone hits their targets with timing, the G8 w/ automatic should be in the US in October, with the V8-variant coming approximately 6 months later




Car Superfreak: I've got 2 questions........


1) So when you say "The G8 Auto" in the US in October, do you mean the
V6 version only? (As I am definitely awaiting / buying the V8 G8).

2) Do you know if the hood scoops are going to make it to production?
I actually prefer the car without the hood scoops. In my opinion
it has a nice clean look.



Thanks in advance! :)



P.S. This sucks, it seems like this car is taking forever to get here. The
VE Holden Commodore seems like it has been out for a while.

:madsign3:

This sucks, it seems like this car is taking forever to get here. The
VE Holden Commodore seems like it has been out for a while.[/B]

:madsign3:

Well, it has been out since the middle of 2006 (just about a year). It doe sbring up a "why didn't they think of this" scenario of building it as a lhd Commodore and simply leaving off the front clip and performing final assembly here. That could even include the US sourced V8. Why ship an engine halfway around the world just to send it back under a hood? But that would adversely affect the domestic CAFE fleet as the car would no longer be 100% imported. Which brings up another interestiung Q, are any of teh modified bumper and fascia exported along with th eengine or is all of that Oz produced?

Well, it has been out since the middle of 2006 (just about a year). It doe sbring up a "why didn't they think of this" scenario of building it as a lhd Commodore and simply leaving off the front clip and performing final assembly here. That could even include the US sourced V8. Why ship an engine halfway around the world just to send it back under a hood? But that would adversely affect the domestic CAFE fleet as the car would no longer be 100% imported. Which brings up another interestiung Q, are any of teh modified bumper and fascia exported along with th eengine or is all of that Oz produced?

it happens all the time in the rest of the world. Things are shipped forward and back between countries for manufacturing. As far as I know, the front clip is made in Oz, along with the V6. The V8 is US built however.

achieftain, I bet your right about the full production in Australia being a CAFE thing. It might also be GMs way of filling up the boats for the return trip from America so they may save a little on shipping.

[QUOTE=NeverEnough!;3983]And speaking of the front bumper...Is it too late to request the Ozzie version? I know this is going to be a Pontiac product, but the signature chrome-outlined grille isn't working for me. The hood intakes look boy-racer too. Don't get me wrong- I love the concept and the rest of the car- Including the wheel arches. This car appeals to me because I can fast-ball it past my boss and wife (my other boss) because it's a four door. Too many import-like add-ons make the sell that much harder. Take a hard look at the Holden- That's exactly what I'd want the G8 front end to look like.

from what i understand, the gators frame (zeta) is supposed to be identical to the holden version, which means body work bolt locations will be the same, u should just need to purchase the front bumper, grill and hood

The structure under the front fascia is different to meet US regs. Ordering from Oz the body parts may not be as simple to install over the new sub. Someone like RKsport will surely have something different anyway in less than 6 months. Look how fast they hit the ground with the Sol and Sky.

The structure under the front fascia is different to meet US regs. Ordering from Oz the body parts may not be as simple to install over the new sub. Someone like RKsport will surely have something different anyway in less than 6 months. Look how fast they hit the ground with the Sol and Sky.

your right, thanks for the correction

Hmmm.... all this talk of delaying it a little made me think on the way home...

Lutz said he didn't want to make the same mistake as they did with the GTO.... could this mean putting a "stopgap" engine in it for just one year? Maybe they are waiting for the LS3 to be ready... I doubt they'd put that in the G8 before any other "flagship" car. How cool would that be though if it was the first vehicle to have the LS3?

Hmmm.... waiting for the LS3 to be ready... I doubt they'd put that in the G8 before any other "flagship" car. How cool would that be though if it was the first vehicle to have the LS3?

There are reasonably reliable sources reporting ( and posting pictures of ) the LS3 in the 2008 Corvette.
- Ray
Hally with an LS2 in MY Corvette.....

Mike P - I don't see why they wouldn't have both the V6 and V8 versions here come this fall. If they only had the V6 for the first 6 months, that would be a pretty bad mistake on their parts.

I never thought that a non-hoodscooped G8 was a possibility?




In terms of the Commodore front end, even if you got the commodore fascia, wouldn't you need the hood too to make it look right? The hood on the G8 has that little piece that connects with the space between the twin grilles.

Mike P - I don't see why they wouldn't have both the V6 and V8 versions here come this fall. If they only had the V6 for the first 6 months, that would be a pretty bad mistake on their parts.

I never thought that a non-hoodscooped G8 was a possibility?

In terms of the Commodore front end, even if you got the commodore fascia, wouldn't you need the hood too to make it look right? The hood on the G8 has that little piece that connects with the space between the twin grilles.

Mike meant, I'm sure, the over 400 hp engine slated for trucks and 'vettes and thought to be the powerplant for a GXP version of the G8. We will see two engines at introduction, no doubt about it. A big factor will be how important is fuel economy to some drivers that will make the V6 more than palatable, compared to their current V6.

I'm betting the V6 G8 won't have hood scoops. That would mean those who want the V8 without can do a swap/get a second hood.

I think even the bare-bones V8 will be without hood scoops and that it will be part of a performance package including rear spoiler and larger wheels.

I guess I've never really bothered to ask or find out, but I assume the hood scoops are not functional?

I guess I've never really bothered to ask or find out, but I assume the hood scoops are not functional?

I would assume they aren't, gm rarely has functional hoodies in its production cars these days. I bet someone is already looking at producing a aftermarket kit, just like with the WS-6

I would assume they aren't, gm rarely has functional hoodies in its production cars these days. I bet someone is already looking at producing a aftermarket kit, just like with the WS-6

I hope they at least let in air to the engine compartment. By my definition, that makes them real and not fake.

I hope they at least let in air to the engine compartment. By my definition, that makes them real and not fake.

Im going off of the WS-6 and the last Camaro SS. Both cars had the hood scoops that looked fuctional, but were actually pieces of plastic molded into a honeycomb pattern covering the openings.

Im going off of the WS-6 and the last Camaro SS. Both cars had the hood scoops that looked fuctional, but were actually pieces of plastic molded into a honeycomb pattern covering the openings.

Uh.... they are functional on those cars.

Uh.... they are functional on those cars.

functional hood scoops means the air the engine uses is directed through those scoops, and into the intake. it does not mean that there are simply holes in the hood that allows air into the engine compartment. heres an idea, drill a few holes in the front fender on your bike so you can have functional air ducts. it should give an extra 50 hp or so.:damnyou:

Function comes in many forms. Heat extracting ducts perform a function. That's what most modern functional GM hood scoops do. If you want RamAir ducts that is a different function. For example, the front brakes on all cars are functional, cross-drilled rotors are functional also but serve the exact same purpose. Now what would you call removing teh lh headlamp on a '03 GP before a trap run, functional or not. It was functional as a headlamp, it becomes functional in its omission as a cold-air intake. Lok at any CAI and you will find them drawing air not through the hood, but from under the bumper. So functional in coolong the engine compartment thereby cooling teh engine thereby retaining hp (note I did not say increasing) is functional, and what he was talking about.

Function comes in many forms. Heat extracting ducts perform a function. That's what most modern functional GM hood scoops do. If you want RamAir ducts that is a different function. For example, the front brakes on all cars are functional, cross-drilled rotors are functional also but serve the exact same purpose. Now what would you call removing teh lh headlamp on a '03 GP before a trap run, functional or not. It was functional as a headlamp, it becomes functional in its omission as a cold-air intake. Lok at any CAI and you will find them drawing air not through the hood, but from under the bumper. So functional in coolong the engine compartment thereby cooling teh engine thereby retaining hp (note I did not say increasing) is functional, and what he was talking about.

10 points.

As far as I'm concerned, so long as there's a way for air to pass through the slots in the hood, they're "functional"

:gears: :gears: 10 points.

As far as I'm concerned, so long as there's a way for air to pass through the slots in the hood, they're "functional"

Well allow me to retort. if you want air inside your engine bay, or air flowing over your rotors, then it would be functional. but doesn't the grill allow air into the engine bay? and what about under the car? do we now have "functional air-flow frames"? no. FORCED AIR INDUCTION or RAM AIR or what ever you want to call it means that all the air the engine uses comes from some sort of system that "forces" the air or "directs" it to the filter by changing the path of the air to be placed directly on the air filter, and only that air is used for the engine, thus the need for hood scoops.(remember the old shaker hoods and how the top had a large gasket that fitted up to the air box on top of the carburator, and then stuck trough the hood. no air from the engine bay was used whatsoever to feed the air filter, it was all from outside the hood and drawn in)

A CAI is functional with just a hole in the hood or takng out the headlight, but that doesnt mean the hood scoops are functional. that just means they allow more and colder air to be realized by the filter, outside of the airbox most manufacturers place inside most engine bays.

now, i will conceed that if the hoodies on the gator allow air to travel into the engine bay, that will be bad ass. but it still wont have "functional hood scoops". it will just be the first step to a bitchin' CAI system

sixstringthang is correct. The airbox should only receive air thru those vents. My 96 TA is a good example of how Ram Air should work. This pic should help:

http://homepage.mac.com/bond2/CarPics/ramair.jpg

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he's saying the WS6 scoops are not functional.

WS6 and SS ram airs were functional in terms of having the air go from the hood scoop into the engine air intake:stickpoke:

And some of us are saying that even if the hood scoops (or side vents for that matter) do open into the engine bay, their engineered "function" may be to EXTRACT air, not combust it. Ploaced at a proper low pressure or negative pressure point forward facing vents can actually wrk opposite of what you would think. If GM supplies an opening in the hood behind the vents that makes them functional. If they don't it is not rocket science to cut two holes in sheet metal, fabricate a plenum and hope that this location is the cleanest, coolest air.

Just getting cold air into the intake isn't the be all and end all of using cold air to increase power.

If you have a fully-functional ram air intake, but your underhood compartment is so badly designed that it retains all the heat, you're likely not getting any gain. Just because you're sucking cold air in, if the engine compartment, and thus the intake manifold and all the intake piping is hot, the air is just going to heat back up by the time it gets to the combustion chamber anyway

If you have air flowing through the engine compartment, ie through hood vents, or heat extractors at a low pressure point as achieftain pointed out, you can increase the heat transfer across the engine block, lowering the skin temperature, and improving your performance.

True, air enters through the front grilles as well, but immediatly behind those is the radiator, so air coming through the engine bay that way is hot. Increasing air flow through the engine compartment is fairly important IMO. I'm certainly hoping that the hood vents are functional in some order - at least as underhood vents or heat extractors.

The structure of the car isn't any different for the US. It was engineered from the onset to be sold globally and conforms to US laws in this regards.

If you really don't like the Pontiac face it is a simple parts swap. All you need is the Commodore's hood and front fascia. Nothing major.

The structure of the car isn't any different for the US. It was engineered from the onset to be sold globally and conforms to US laws in this regards.

If you really don't like the Pontiac face it is a simple parts swap. All you need is the Commodore's hood and front fascia. Nothing major.


Wasn't the point brought up that the Holden front clip didn't comply with US regs? Or was that the HSV front clip?

^ correct. The front clip of the Commodore does not meet US bumper regs. There is an entirely new US bumper under the Pontiac nose over which the Commodore nose will not fit. A person could certainly remove all of that and run around town with a non-conforming vehicle. Like the feds will follow the importation of Holden parts and sit outside your door just waiting for you to pull into traffic. But hey, that's a a chance that someone would have to take if they want their US Holden to look like a Aussie Holden.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he's saying the WS6 scoops are not functional.

the ws-6 has four sectioned "hood scoops", two of which are fuctional as letting air into the engine compartment. however, the ram air IS COMPLETELY functional, see above picture. the thing is that the ws-6 and the ram air are two completely different variations from two different companies of the same car. pontiac never produced the ws-6 or ram air, they simply built the cars to look like the v-6 models, but with a v-8 and a six speed, and those cars were in turn shipped to another company that did the ws-6 and ram air conversions. case in point: when i ordered my ws-6 in 2000, delivery was three weeks longer than the v-6, b/c of the secondary mods.

the ss was always covered with the solid honeycomb piece. the scoop itself is way to far back on the hood to be fully functional like the ram air, but it is very easy to remove that piece to allow air to flow into the engine bay, and like carsuperfreak pointed out, it has to be cooler than the rest of the engine bay air when it hits the engine, or it doesnt help, which is why removing that piece actually did give a minor hp increase.

I don't want to be picky, but the 1996 and 1997 Camaro SS actually had a functional scoop also. It wasn't ram-air but was a CAI system from the hood scoop.

Chip

Pontiacs in recent years have always been classified (by the factory) as "bottom-breathers", meaning that combustion air was sourced from the openings under or contained in the bumper. That is one of the reasons that the small grill openings traditional to the split twin-kidney openings could be so small. Behind them is only radiator and a/c condensor. As teh air fro underneath is usually cleaner and cooler it has made sense to draw the most in through the bottom. Unless a hood scoop is directed straight to the intake (whether ram-air or not), it can likely be less effective than providing the same or similar increase in opening under the car. But bumper scoops don't look as cool as hood scoops, so in a way it is simly a retrospective nod to the days of carburetors sitting on top of engines, with air cleaner boxes without emissions snorkels on top of that. Starting with simple tbi and then multi-port and on to d.i. the overall height of a modern V8 of comparable size has probably been reduced by 8-12 inches or more, thus allowing the packaging of a V8 into the space normally reserved for a V6 (Chryco T&C minivan as an example - with V8 this summer)

Well allow me to retort.


Someone is a fan of Pulp Fiction.;)

Greg

Someone is a fan of Pulp Fiction.;)

Greg

let it be known that greg is the **** for noticing. NICE!!!!
:boink: