It's official the tune is released. He is still looking for a vehicle in his area to dyno but the tune can now be purchased. A Google search for Trifecta will get you what you want to know.

Huge breakthrough, awesome. Thanks for being part of this, guys like me who couldn't help out will certainly appreciate it.

Just wondering, what does this do to the car?

400 bucks ouch.... I will have to wait to see the gains to see if worth it...

Also need to know if it is a invisible tune.

400 bucks ouch.... I will have to wait to see the gains to see if worth it...


Compared to tunes for the GT this isn't a bad price . No need to send ECM to be tuned you do everything with a OBD port device that is sent to you and your laptop is all that is needed. You send in your vin number and Vince will email you the stock tune and and port device after you send back a data run that you do he looks at what the car is doing and custom fits the tune for your car. You can purchase the OBD port device and if you need to make a trip to the dealer just reflash the stock tune.

:popcorn2:

I Agree 400 buckaroos man just say thats around 30 WHP then ill invest ha ha other wise the car stays stock and my Mustang keeps getting the attention.

In my opinion 400 bucks isn't to bad think of what a Roto-Fab cost $339.00 plus shipping for 10-18 RWHP. I personally will be getting a tune when the weather breaks in Chicago and I thank them whole heartedly for the tune.

Its not horrible but I mean rwhp not to the crank a cold air intake on a 6cyl g8 I'm saying gets you at most 8 hp to wheels if any so I mean I need proof before I commit that's just me though

Im just quotung Roto-Fab and I believe that's at WOT.

I went to the camaro board today to check on the tune thats available not to promising at the moment no real gains have been made.

What are the gains so far??? Just curious. Thanks.

According to what ive read on camaro forum its more of a tranny tune and hes had some luck tuning to the airaid CAi.

A tune that works!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERFORMANCE-CHIP-PONTIAC-G8-2008-2009_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem19b9ff303eQQitemZ1 10494691390QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcc essories

That Ebay tune is snake oil, lol

A tune that works!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERFORMANCE-CHIP-PONTIAC-G8-2008-2009_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem19b9ff303eQQitemZ1 10494691390QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcc essories

I bought 5 of these, going to piggy back them together...should have over 700WHP by the end of the day :D

Next up, Flux Capacitor!

Don't forget a TB spacer! That's gotta be another 50hp..

http://www.airaid.com/images/ProductImages/200-630-1-LG.jpg

I bought 5 of these, going to piggy back them together...should have over 700WHP by the end of the day :D

Next up, Flux Capacitor!


LOL I just read this discription etc. on Ebay. It sounds like if you get this chip you wont ever need gas again, an oil change and you will be able to travel through time! What ridiculas claims. Does this thing do anything?

Can I install one of those chips and then sue them for false advertising when I don't get a 75hp gain? That should pay for a gxp upgrade..

Has anyone tried the trifecta tune? i was looking over their site and they say that it was gains of 4+ hp.. but the stock horsepower of the g8 v6 was 227 or something like that.. seems like a little bit more of a gain then 4+

Has anyone tried the trifecta tune? i was looking over their site and they say that it was gains of 4+ hp.. but the stock horsepower of the g8 v6 was 227 or something like that.. seems like a little bit more of a gain then 4+

weren't the majority of the stock tunes coming in around 200 HP + / - 5HP???

Yes, when i dyno'd my g8 it was 215 at best run and I have a K&N CAI... never did it with exhaust yet. So I am guessing they either did not dyno the g8 stock numbers and just posted the numbers.

Does anyone know if this tunes the tranny?

Yes, when i dyno'd my g8 it was 215 at best run and I have a K&N CAI... never did it with exhaust yet. So I am guessing they either did not dyno the g8 stock numbers and just posted the numbers.

Does anyone know if this tunes the tranny?


I would send an email to Vince and ask him. As far as dyno #'s go its all dependant on so many factors I would not try and compair multiple cars on multiples dynos across the country.

At the crank we're making 261 HP and about 200 at the wheels stock. Vince has said that the tune does not tune the tranny.

Do you have the dyno sheet from your run? I want to see where the RPM sweet spot is for our car.

Thats ok if you want a good laugh some kid was trying to tell a coworker that he had a dealer load the CTS 304 HP tune (for the direct injected engine LOL)

Huge breakthrough, awesome. Thanks for being part of this, guys like me who couldn't help out will certainly appreciate it.

I couldn't agree more...except for the fact that Im a girl :)

I don't see the point in tuning a V6 and I own one. But for those who do, happy hunting.

Guys...just some FYI...Contacted Vector Motorsports this week about a tune for the V6...they informed me that there was not a tune available for the V6, nor do they know of anyone else who has created one. But one of the guys in our local G8 group did say we could tune the tranny....has anyone done this? If so, what were your results?

Tune the tranny from what means? Using HPTuners or from some shop? I have HPTuners and haven't tried to tune the V6 because its not supported.

I talked to the guys at Trifecta, and there most definitely IS a tune available for the V6. I'm local to them (within a couple hours), so as soon as I get my Rotofab CAI I'll be getting a tune and dyno and I'll post back.

I talked to the guys at Trifecta, and there most definitely IS a tune available for the V6. I'm local to them (within a couple hours), so as soon as I get my Rotofab CAI I'll be getting a tune and dyno and I'll post back.

YaY. I have a rotofab as well. Can you post up your dynograph? I want to see what our power curve looks like.

Our group went down to Wilmington yesterday and had the cars dyno'd...I was the only V6....good results from the first time I had the car dyno'd....226.54 HP ~ 231.74 Torque. Anyhow, while there and talking to the guys from the Shop, they checked and HP Tuners does have a tune that supports the V6...and I made them verify that twice!! Anyhow...going back on the 25th for the tune and a new dyno run....we will see

Our group went down to Wilmington yesterday and had the cars dyno'd...I was the only V6....good results from the first time I had the car dyno'd....226.54 HP ~ 231.74 Torque. Anyhow, while there and talking to the guys from the Shop, they checked and HP Tuners does have a tune that supports the V6...and I made them verify that twice!! Anyhow...going back on the 25th for the tune and a new dyno run....we will see

Did they check on HPTuners website or actually plugged it in? It has it listed on the website but it doesn't work. Someone started a thread on HPTuners website/forum asking about V6 capability with no luck. V6 tuning is on the back burner as more money making platforms have priority.

Whoever you goto gets it to work more power to them. I have HPTuners and would like to know how they get it to work.

They checked on HP's website....and from your statement GM... now warrants me calling them this morning for "further investigation"....not going to waste time, nor money on a "long shot" ....and one would think, the shop would know that right off the bat....I'll keep you posted! :whine:

Aside from the trifecta lead, if I remember correctly, the g8 v6 tune has stalled because GM chose to put the "Bosche" ECM into the V6 G8, in contrast to the infinitely more tunable "Delphi" E38 ECM found on the V8 G8's.

That same line of Delphi ECM's are what tuners reverse engineered back in the days of LT1, LS1, LS2 and similar engines. This history and bigger "aftermarket" made the tunes for the Delphi ECM more common, whereas the nearly uncrackable "Bosche" ECM has stayed relegated to a select few model lines in comparison.

Not that it can't be done, but to hack into the Bosche ECM and reverse-engineer (i.e., download a complete ECM profile to a laptop with a cable) is a very difficult process, in comparison to the E38 methods.

I did hear somewhere that Trifecta had come up with a successful download of the ECM code, and released a tune, but their results, even with a CAI were within 10-15hp of stock, so it wasn't worth the 400+ dollars of investment, at least at the time.

When Austrailians upgrade their SV6 Holden cars, they often use a "piggyback ECM" which gets spliced into the cars wiring harness and modifies signals and thresholds "inline" on their way to the engine. So the stock ECM is sending out the factory stuff, this piggyback ECM is converting it on the fly, and then the result is that these guys can run turbos or different cams in their V6's.

Let me :hail: to my "mentor" of vital information. I will definately share this with NS when I call them later this morning...I am sure I could take that $$$ and find something else to enhance on "my girl" without be disappointed. However, I do want to ask this....is it possible to have a tune done to the transmission? One of guys in the group said he done it to his GT and what a difference, any hope for the V6?

:wink2:

There are many who are waiting on your results, so be sure to tell all. If indeed there is a tune compatible with HPTuners and you are one of the first to successfully try/debug it, then you will lead many who have the V6 to more performance.

Good luck, hope to hear good news.

Well I called Nick @ NS...shared the info with him from you, and other members and "stressed" my concerns about paying a "nice chunk" for a tune that may only provide a gain of a few hp... he was already contacting HP Tuners (via email) while we were on the phone and once he gets a reply, he is to call me...and depending on what he says, will be the deciding factor....but if he gurantees that their tune "can" give me more than 5HP, plus smooth out the tranny...it might be well worth that "chunk" :)

Here is the thread that was started from a forum member about the G8 V6 tune on HPTuners website.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25619

If HPTuners did release the patch for it to work you can get full capabilty to tune the engine and transmission. From another thread the Trifecta tune only gave up about 4hp and 1tq above stock. If I remember right the tune was more than $500. You can get that much by changing the filter, or waiting for cooler weather.

BTW: southerngirlnc did you run 87 or 89 octane in your car during the dyno run? Good luck to you, hopefully HPTuners will work with you. All they just needed was the time, ecm and interest/value added to get it to work.

Cool. I've subscribed to this thread and interested to see what becomes of it. If there are any noticeable or worthwhile gains, then I may invest into a tune later on way down the road. The filp-a-coin, we'll see, I'm not sure stances, I'll pass on each of those..

Here is the thread that was started from a forum member about the G8 V6 tune on HPTuners website.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25619

If HPTuners did release the patch for it to work you can get full capabilty to tune the engine and transmission. From another thread the Trifecta tune only gave up about 4hp and 1tq above stock. If I remember right the tune was more than $500. You can get that much by changing the filter, or waiting for cooler weather.

BTW: southerngirlnc did you run 87 or 89 octane in your car during the dyno run? Good luck to you, hopefully HPTuners will work with you. All they just needed was the time, ecm and interest/value added to get it to work.

Well finally heard something back from the shop...HP Tuners sent a reply stating: "the G8 has been supported for some time"...well ok we know that, but want verification for a V6. They also sent the shop some threads and I read over them....still not sure if this tune would do anything. So Im asking a few more questions before I make the final call....because it has to "prove" to me it would make a difference...other than taking "HP's word that it might"....im not into throwing $$ out the window...

And for the record...I normally run 89, but that morning...<WEG>.....I did need a little gas, had about a half of tank, so I filled her up with 91! I am the only V6 in the group...and the guys always give me crap (so they can see my true "southern bell side")...but I think I earned a little of their "respect" on Saturday :)

Yeah there's a thread titled Dyno'd the V6, I believe, that states the same thing. I think I'm going to hang the flag on the staff and surrender... :us_flag:. Either HP tuners is uncertain themselves or just not interested in giving straight answers.

Yeah there's a thread titled Dyno'd the V6, I believe, that states the same thing. I think I'm going to hang the flag on the staff and surrender... :us_flag:. Either HP tuners is uncertain themselves or just not interested in giving straight answers.

Funny how your statemtnt ITZAPONY hit the "nail on top of the head"....here is the latest word from the shop who is trying to do the tune on my ride.......

"Betsy,

I was about to key you up another e-mail. I responded to the HP Tuners rep with the link to the thread you sent me. His e-mail response was a bit unusual… he basically admitted he didn’t fully pay attention to my initial e-mail and assumed I was talking about the GT or GXP haha. The last we left off he was going to do further checking and then get back to me. As far as the payment, we would not charge you for anything that wasn’t done, so if the tune didn’t work out there wouldn’t be a charge. At this time I’m not sure about the transmission-only tune, but he should get back to me on that one too.

Talk to you soon,
Nick "

So...maybe we will know more tomorrow...or like I said on the other thread...I will be joining you in "hanging that flag on this upgrade" :(

Well not the news I was hoping to hear :whine:....received word from the shop today that HP Tuners tune for the V6 is not compatible with the V6 G8....you would think that this company would indicate such on their website...but I guess "we are not of concern to them".
Anyhow...I'll take the funds and do something else to "EL"....might even treat myself to a day at the spa after dealing with this for 3 days...lol. :driving:

So have you guys got the tune or not?? All V6's VE's are tunable here (Oz), except the direct injection engines, but they will be coming online in a couple of weeks. Though at the moment, only castle hill exhaust as far as I'm aware of have the tune.

Cheers

So have you guys got the tune or not?? All V6's VE's are tunable here (Oz), except the direct injection engines, but they will be coming online in a couple of weeks. Though at the moment, only castle hill exhaust as far as I'm aware of have the tune.

Cheers

Hey Kuzman, when you say the Oz V6's are tunable .... do you guys have the Bosche controller like what I described earlier in this thread?

If so, please spill the details: This "Castle Hill" company tune, how does it work (laptop with cable to ODB2 port OR more complicated like splicing wires?) and what are the gains in respect to stock?

All V6 G8's are not Direct Injected, so from what it sounds like, it just may work for USA spec G8 V6's.

:judge:

Hey Kuzman, when you say the Oz V6's are tunable .... do you guys have the Bosche controller like what I described earlier in this thread?

If so, please spill the details: This "Castle Hill" company tune, how does it work (laptop with cable to ODB2 port OR more complicated like splicing wires?) and what are the gains in respect to stock?


http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=140584

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=138758

Abit of info on those sites, I'd imagine it'd be direct plugin and play without requiring any splicing. I'm test trialing another tune for another workshop, so will post results, however it won't be a dyno tune, more of a flashtune.

From what I posted earler in the HPTuners thread we use the same ECM as the Aussie VE's, thats not the biggest issue. The issue is getting someone to write a program to read and write to it, and thats what Trifecta and this Castle Hill have done on their own. These bigger VCM suites have other money making projects that the G8 V6 won't bring in the money so their is not much interest in making it work.

From what I posted earler in the HPTuners thread we use the same ECM as the Aussie VE's, thats not the biggest issue. The issue is getting someone to write a program to read and write to it, and thats what Trifecta and this Castle Hill have done on their own. These bigger VCM suites have other money making projects that the G8 V6 won't bring in the money so their is not much interest in making it work.

Well stated. GM slammed Pontiac. So as time goes on, the likelihood of a tune for the V6 gets slimer and slimer.

Hi all the way from New Zealand we also have a tuner here

so feel free to contact them : paulmanuellracing.co.nz

Perhaps one of you guys should check with the guys from carputing (LS2edit). it's a tuner suite like HPtuners or EFIlive, and i think it's what VMS uses to tune G8's, perhaps Livernois does the same thing.

LS2edit is supposed to support the 2008 G8 and 2009 G8 V6 models

http://carputing.tripod.com/LS2main.htm

To what extent do they offer support for the V6 model ? i have no idea, but it might be worth to ask. then one of you can learn how to use the tool provided the support is there, and you guys can start your own tuning world.

Something to keep in mind, this is not a canned tune thing where you click yes and no, a laptop is required, and some basic tuning concepts must be there. it's not that difficult, and if they allow you to change timing and fuel, you guys would be gold.
Good Luck.

Here is the reply I got.

Dennis,

We support the 2009 3.6 Liter LLT and 3.6L LY7. We have the same full set of parameters for this engine, that we do for all the other 2009 engines. It allows you to change teh Fuel, Spark timing, and torque management tables just like the Corvette and camaro engines. There are several hundred parameters you can edit. We also support the automatic transmission controls in this car.

We were the first company to sell an editor for the LS1 and LS2 engines. We are used by dozens of large tuning shops, and many home users.

Ken

Now I've never tuned a car in my life and I'm not about to start with my DD. But this is good to know.

-Dennis-

Well there you go, fully tuneable V6 cars, now somebody need to grab some guevos, buy the tool and learn how how to use it. think about the possibilites, cam, FI, nitrous, etc, etc. i'll be all over the place :)

Negative. G8V6 uses the E77 ECM, which is not supported.

Bollocks! We were so close!

Negative. G8V6 uses the E77 ECM, which is not supported.

Bollocks! We were so close!
Yea, I heard back from Ken a little while later saying he only had support for the '08 G6. In '09 the G6 went to the same BOSCH ECM too.

Damn, thought we had something there.

-Dennis-

They didn't make an 08 G6 with the 3.6L LY7 did they? Only the 2009 G6 GXP?

Dear Santa,
All I want for Christmas this year is a tune for my V6 G8....and my chances are?? I've been a really, really good girl this year :wink2:
Sorry...thinking outloud...lol!

Dennis,

We support the 2009 3.6 Liter LLT and 3.6L LY7. We have the same full set of parameters for this engine, that we do for all the other 2009 engines. It allows you to change teh Fuel, Spark timing, and torque management tables just like the Corvette and camaro engines. There are several hundred parameters you can edit. We also support the automatic transmission controls in this car.

We were the first company to sell an editor for the LS1 and LS2 engines. We are used by dozens of large tuning shops, and many home users.

Ken

Good God, someone jump on this.

The V6 crowd isnt as mod happy as us V8 guys, but here is a great chance. The biggest thing you guys would benefit from would be TORQUE MANAGMENT. Who cares if you only get a few (5-8hp) from the tune, with the right torque managment us V8 guys shave .3-.5 seconds in the quarter on average.

So lets consider a V6 G8, with 256hp at the crank with a Rotofab intake, X-pipe, Axlebacks, UDP, and this tune you would be looking at around 285-295hp at the crank, and likely shave .5-.8 in the quarter... how about some 3.27 gears with LSD...

Hmm i can design a G8 V6 in my head that would run with a stock G8 GT... someone needs to actually do this...

Just thinking out loud. I planned to buy a G8 V6 and do all this before I found my GT

Who is the company offering this tune? And will it do anything for the transmission?
B~

Yea, I heard back from Ken a little while later saying he only had support for the '08 G6. In '09 the G6 went to the same BOSCH ECM too.

Damn, thought we had something there.

-Dennis-
You must have missed this post... :slap:

-Dennis-

Wishful thinking. Unless someone offers a HPTuners or EFILive based tune, it doesn't matter. You can bolt on as much crap as you want but if you can't optimize the tune for all that stuff then it means little.

I had a pretty good conversation with the lead programmer, Vince, at Trifecta Performance. Here's basically what he said about the LY7 V6:

"We can tweak the G8 V6 tune as much as you want or need. It just so happens the factory didn’t leave us much room for tweaking. Lol.

This vehicle uses a 5sp automatic transmission with a very “non standard” transmission controller. We’re still working on identifying what type of CPU it uses."


So I asked a few more questions about custom tuning, and about the transmission:


He said: "What I mean is that we’ve tuned them to their peak potential which resulted in relatively small gains. But if you put a turbocharger on it, we could tune it for you and make it work, but the limiting factor is that there just isn’t any more power to be unlocked from the engine because the factory already unlocked it.

There’s really no magic that happens when we tune these things – we optimize the fuel, air flow, and timing. If the factory optimized it so well already, then there’s nothing more people like us can gain from it. It’s not even that it’s difficult or a pain to tune, it’s simply that the factory didn’t leave us with any room to improve.

Having said that, that’s just the experience I had with the car I did on the dyno. Yours may be different. We might gain 30HP from yours, if the tune needs improvement.

Yes, the engineers at GM and/or Holden probably know what type of CPU is in the transmission controller. I am sure I could figure it out without any inside help, but to be honest, it’s not like people have been knocking down the door for tuning for this 5sp auto so it’s pretty low on the priority list."


Case closed, it's been answered. Unfortunately, we are stuck with our HP range without doing any serious mods. Yes, the GT would be great to have and would sweet for modding.....but everything for the V8 costs more. More fuel, more oil, larger rotors, etc.

Well, happy modding with what you can mod LOL!

This is what makes the V6 a great car for the money. We have a motor that already is running at it's best, just add a CAI. We can upgrade the sound system, suspension, tires and brakes. Once that's complete you have a rare car with awesome looks and fun to drive. I was happy to put my new 3.6 badge on the trunk yesterday.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1035&pictureid=6782

This is what makes the V6 a great car for the money. We have a motor that already is running at it's best, just add a CAI. We can upgrade the sound system, suspension, tires and brakes. Once that's complete you have a rare car with awesome looks and fun to drive. I was happy to put my new 3.6 badge on the trunk yesterday.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1035&pictureid=6782
The 3.6 looks great, had thought bout doing this .You just made up my mind,Thanks Bob

Don't forget who started that 3.6 badge trend! ;)

The 3.6 looks great, had thought bout doing this .You just made up my mind,Thanks Bob

Glad I could help, thanks to you too, B.K.

It looks very clean. I think it really helps balance out the rear badging. When you take off the PONTIAC and just leave the G8, then put the 3.6 on the other side with the dart in the middle, it creates a very symmetrical look which fits the car very well. I've got this weird, nearly fetish-like compulsion towards symmetry, which is why I love our interior so much. You could draw a line down the middle of our car, and the interior is perfectly mirrored, down to the buttons on the center console and head unit. I love that.

You guys are missing the point. Its the TCM adjustments that make the gain. So what if they can only get you 5hp over the factory settings... you will likely drop up to .3-.5 tenths with a good TCM tune. Get more torque to the ground, the faster you accelerate.

A superchips tune for the G8 was at one point tested as gaining about 6-8hp alone. But this same tuner decreased the 1/4 mile time by .4 tenths... thats a big gain-- its all in the TCM adjustments

Dropping from a 15.1 factory 1/4 mile to a 14.5 from a tune and intake is putting you closer to what a 6.0 G8 GT is running. Throw some 3.27 gears in UDP you might be getting right in line.

You guys are missing the point. Its the TCM adjustments that make the gain. So what if they can only get you 5hp over the factory settings... you will likely drop up to .3-.5 tenths with a good TCM tune. Get more torque to the ground, the faster you accelerate.

A superchips tune for the G8 was at one point tested as gaining about 6-8hp alone. But this same tuner decreased the 1/4 mile time by .4 tenths... thats a big gain-- its all in the TCM adjustments

Dropping from a 15.1 factory 1/4 mile to a 14.5 from a tune and intake is putting you closer to what a 6.0 G8 GT is running. Throw some 3.27 gears in UDP you might be getting right in line.

GT Rodmeister, unless you have discovered a magical potion in the form of an actual product/tune we can use to enhance the performance of our LY7/5L40-E set up then really what's the point in your post? :dunno:

You guys are missing the point. Its the TCM adjustments that make the gain. So what if they can only get you 5hp over the factory settings... you will likely drop up to .3-.5 tenths with a good TCM tune. Get more torque to the ground, the faster you accelerate.

A superchips tune for the G8 was at one point tested as gaining about 6-8hp alone. But this same tuner decreased the 1/4 mile time by .4 tenths... thats a big gain-- its all in the TCM adjustments

Dropping from a 15.1 factory 1/4 mile to a 14.5 from a tune and intake is putting you closer to what a 6.0 G8 GT is running. Throw some 3.27 gears in UDP you might be getting right in line.where do i find the chip in your post ,had thought about gear change to before ? I would like to go this route.

where do i find the chip in your post ,had thought about gear change to before ? I would like to go this route.

I don't think there is one for our LY7/5L40-E set up. That's the problem.

There is talk of a vendor a few posts up willing to to get in there and work on a TCM tune. Everyone seems to want to get a tune thats going to give them as much horsepower as possible... But the TCM tune is all thats needed.

Yes, the engineers at GM and/or Holden probably know what type of CPU is in the transmission controller. I am sure I could figure it out without any inside help, but to be honest, it’s not like people have been knocking down the door for tuning for this 5sp auto so it’s pretty low on the priority list -- so go knock on the door.

My first car was a 91 Iroc Daytona.... not camaro... Dodge... Front wheel Drive.... with a 3.0V6, 4 speed automatic.. that car made 141hp.... there was NO aftermarket. I remember getting a Throttle body from a 3.3L Chrysler concorde, taking off the upper intake plenum and porting the crap out of it....advancing the timing -distributor days :D-, low temp t-stat, cone filter right on the TB, full exhaust and a shift kit from TCI... that car ran a 15.1 at the track... probably a 15.9 stock... lots of Daytona owners did this DIY stuff and the cars went good!

Just get creative, Y'all actually have a good parts bin to choose from: intakes, UDP's, Trifecta tune- a guy willing to try a TCM tune- 3.27-3.45 gears... exhaust.... someone should go to town! Throw a 75 shot on there and show up a GT.