The OEM strut mount on the left has already collapsed and I only have 3700 miles on the car. It is worse than the photo shows and it is badly tilted to one side.The one beside it is the Pedders replacement. From what I was told and read here in a Pedders post, this was a common problem with GTOs. The Pedders unit is better quality but even it will need watching as the GTO and G8 are pretty hard on strut mounts.

Maybe Mike or Pete of Pedders can elaborate.

http://pages.villagephotos.com/page.asp?page_id=4245

I'm sorry for posting the same link as my install photos but I thought you should see this and now that the image is in this java thing I don't know how to post just a single image.

The G8 strut to mount is at a steep angle, good for performance, crappy for longevity. We are not expecting the OE mounts to last very long, and we may consider replacing the Pedders mounts at certain mileage intervals, it's still a bit uncertain about how well they will hold up.

Nice Legs!

the first G8 tht I did had 1800 soft miles. Not only were the collapsed, they were also starting to tear on the inside center area. But as far as I can tell, they were the only oes so far doing it. Holden says they put the init at a angle so it will last longer. Time will tell. but judging b the very serious failures of the GTO, I will be more optimistic than practical on these mounts!!

Collapsed mounts are normal. It is when they start to relocate the center part of the bushing, that all should be concerned about.

time will tell so lets try and be optimistc about them. But one thing for sure, be fanatci on tire pressures, and rotations. If you do it yourself, keep a log. check your tires regularily, at least 1 tie a month or more.

mike
dms

Oye, here they come. They sky is falling, hopefully there's no X member bushings on this car because those are guaranteed to fail and drop out your rear end on the GTO.

Nice Legs!
GACK!!!!!

Oye, here they come. They sky is falling, hopefully there's no X member bushings on this car because those are guaranteed to fail and drop out your rear end on the GTO.

LOL. I have to chuckle to myself everytime I read a Pedders-related "bushings may collapse, shock may blow, we'll just have to see" post. Brilliant marketing by innuendo on all the Pontiac forums for the past few years. I'm not saying it isn't good stuff, just the marketing tactics give me a laugh.

Oye, here they come. They sky is falling, hopefully there's no X member bushings on this car because those are guaranteed to fail and drop out your rear end on the GTO.

No, the sky is not falling. Now lets look at the record of the GTO, which is the exact bushing in the G8. the so called issues of strut rub, and serious inside tire wear are a direct factor caused by the strut bush. As far as I can tell, there are 2 legal firsm doing investigation on this issue as I speak. So this is more than just a whim.

We have yet to see a set of strut mounts not collapsed. With te high offset angles generated by the mounting plate, we will have to see if there will be a long term problem. Holden says the reason for the high degree is to have the strut mount last longer. Seems counter intuitive to me, but again, the only legitimate response that I can make is to wait and see. Teh typical Pontiac dealer has blamed the inside tire wear on customer dirving habits or abuse. Few have stepped up to the plate and taken care of customers. Now wouldn't you appreciate knowing this info, and the advise to monitor tire pressures carefully and regularly, and to rotate tire frequently, and to at least check your tires regularly? So many GTO customers did not and have collectively spent millions of dollars replacing tires for premature wear.
So hopefully knowledge can save everyone some tires by hopefully assisting them to get better tire life.


And oh by the way, there are 4 rear xmember bushes. We have never recommended replacing any xmember bush because they will fall out. We have recommended them, as well as every suspension company that make GTO suspension coponents because, like so many other pieces they are very soft. And for the sports enthusisat who wants a better handling vehicle, we can make those bushes better as well. Just thought you would want to know


Also, I did not start this post, a customer did, He is showing the bushes collapsing at a very small amount of mileage. So are you saying it is OK to have them collapse which will lead to increased negative cambers, and ultimatley changes in caster, and toe??
mike
dms

Nobody at Pedders or Rocksand Racing asked me to post that photo. In fact they didn't know anything about the post or the photo until i made the post.

I saw Frank and his crew remove the struts from the car and I saw that the mounts were badly tilted to one side so I asked about it. I remembered a thread I read about collapsed GTO mounts but had never seen one myself. Frank set it beside a new mount when they disassembled the strut so I could see how much the OEM mount had collapsed and that it was collapsed on an angle too.

I thought it was something I should bring to the G8er's attention. I met Frank (Rocksand Racing), Walt and Brandon for the first time Saturday. They are all great guys. I really enjoyed meeting them and think of them as friends but I won't pimp for them or Pedders.

I saw something that struck me as not right and would have been concerned whether there was a previous post about it or not. If you think it is a marketing ploy by Pedders, think what you want. I could care less. Maybe it is nothing. Maybe it is not. I can tell you I'm going to look at my tire wear more closely, just in case. These 19" Potenzas are not cheap and I don't want to piss away money if I can avoid it.

No, the sky is not falling. Now lets look at the record of the GTO, which is the exact bushing in the G8. the so called issues of strut rub, and serious inside tire wear are a direct factor caused by the strut bush. As far as I can tell, there are 2 legal firsm doing investigation on this issue as I speak. So this is more than just a whim.

We have yet to see a set of strut mounts not collapsed. With te high offset angles generated by the mounting plate, we will have to see if there will be a long term problem. Holden says the reason for the high degree is to have the strut mount last longer. Seems counter intuitive to me, but again, the only legitimate response that I can make is to wait and see. Teh typical Pontiac dealer has blamed the inside tire wear on customer dirving habits or abuse. Few have stepped up to the plate and taken care of customers. Now wouldn't you appreciate knowing this info, and the advise to monitor tire pressures carefully and regularly, and to rotate tire frequently, and to at least check your tires regularly? So many GTO customers did not and have collectively spent millions of dollars replacing tires for premature wear.
So hopefully knowledge can save everyone some tires by hopefully assisting them to get better tire life.


And oh by the way, there are 4 rear xmember bushes. We have never recommended replacing any xmember bush because they will fall out. We have recommended them, as well as every suspension company that make GTO suspension coponents because, like so many other pieces they are very soft. And for the sports enthusisat who wants a better handling vehicle, we can make those bushes better as well. Just thought you would want to know


Also, I did not start this post, a customer did, He is showing the bushes collapsing at a very small amount of mileage. So are you saying it is OK to have them collapse which will lead to increased negative cambers, and ultimatley changes in caster, and toe??
mike
dms

Are you saying GM/Holden know these parts may wear prematurely ?

I looked on some GTO boards ad saw that some thought it had to do with the cars being lashed down very tightly on the boats to get them here. I don't know it is valid or BS. It is just what I read.

Are you saying GM/Holden know these parts may wear prematurely ?

Yes GM knows.....Frank

g8v8 could you please post some pics of your beautiful car.

g8v8 could you please post some pics of your beautiful car.

Thanks. Right now the only exterior photo I have of it lowered with the Pedders kit is in the Pedders photo threat I posted.

To tell you the truth, I've been spending so much time just driving it that I've not taken photos since i got back from Rocksand Racing, LLC where the install was done. I'll get some soon and post them.

Yes GM knows.....Frank

I met Frank on Saturday. He is the #1 Pedders dealer in the US. If anybody was going to see collapsed mounts, it is him.

If you spent a little time with him (or Walt) you would know that he knows his business. I have complete trust in him so when he says it is something he (and GM ) know about, I believe him.

Ed [out]

Are you saying GM/Holden know these parts may wear prematurely ?

GM is in fact aware of the strut bushings and their issues. They are very much aware of the issues with them on the GTO. If you G8 guys doubt our knowledge of these bushing issues, do some research on the GTO forum.

mike
dms

Yes GM knows.....Frank

Another quick question, other than the excessive tire wear will this cause any other safety issue ?

Oye, here they come. They sky is falling, hopefully there's no X member bushings on this car because those are guaranteed to fail and drop out your rear end on the GTO.

Topperge,

You are a moderator!!!!! that should require you to show some responsibility in what and how you write things. Your comments were totaly uncalled for. You of all poeple, being an active memeber of the GTO community, should be totally aware of the issues with the GTO suspension. Pedders did not invent the problems, They offers solutions, and very serious technical support to that community.

We cannot damage he bushes to make them look bad. If you have a issue with one of your fenders, who pay quite a bit of money to this forum, then have a discussion in a respectful manner, and not be rude

mike
dms

Another quick question, other than the excessive tire wear will this cause any other safety issue ?

I really would not call it a safety issue like potentially the GTO. With the GTO, there was very close tire to strut clearance issues, but the GTO does not seem to have this clearance concern.

I wuld hope the angle in the strut plate, will help to make the bushing last longer, as Holden said it would. Time will tell. But again, seeing the very serious negative affects of this bushing in the GTO world, and the serious lack of support the GM dealer base offered, until there is some time and miles on the G8 for us to make our determinations, we would like everyone to watch their tires for wear. Now is that too much for our moderators to handle??

mike
dms

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/65524/MLAJW-28658243-DSCN0435_483.JPG

Topperge,

You are a moderator!!!!! that should require you to show some responsibility in what and how you write things. Your comments were totaly uncalled for. You of all poeple, being an active memeber of the GTO community, should be totally aware of the issues with the GTO suspension. Pedders did not invent the problems, They offers solutions, and very serious technical support to that community.

We cannot damage he bushes to make them look bad. If you have a issue with one of your fenders, who pay quite a bit of money to this forum, then have a discussion in a respectful manner, and not be rude

mike
dms

You might want to validate that the person is actually a moderator, because the tag line under a users name can be changed by the user themselves. See mine as "Sideways GT", but it could easily read "Moderator".

You might want to validate that the person is actually a moderator, because the tag line under a users name can be changed by the user themselves. See mine as "Sideways GT", but it could easily read "Moderator".

I should not have to validate a moderator. If he is not, then he should be slapped by the forum owners for being deceptive.

I did send the owners a email abut this

thanks for the info

mike
dms

Seems like folks will say anything here to get you to buy there parts. I have 30K miles of warranty. Let them all fail, every 1K miles! I can get 20K bushing over the life of the car for free!

Seems like folks will say anything here to get you to buy there parts.

Don't like the truth?

Seems like folks will say anything here to get you to buy there parts. I have 30K miles of warranty. Let them all fail, every 1K miles! I can get 20K bushing over the life of the car for free!

Why are we making a big deal out of this bush? The reason is an exgremely poor response fro GM and their dealers. The typical scenaro is a guy comes in with a inside tire wear issue. And usually the wear is so much that the tires have to be replaced. Warranty for align,ments only goes to 7500 miles. then the dealership will tell you the alignment is off and you are responsible. You will tell them there is a potential issue with collapsing strut bushes. They will do a computer search, and there will be no bulletins. Then they will ask you to show proof of maintenance. If the dealership is a normal Pontiac dealerhship, then you just bought some tires, and alignment and are now pissed.
this is the normal experience of hundreds and hundres and hundreds of GTO owners.

So as I haved said before, be proactive, and watch your tire pressures and check your tires at least 1 time a month

Mike
dms

I don't think anybody here has said to by Pedders mounts. I know nobody from Pedders did and neither did I. I bought them because, like their bushes, they are made of better materials and I needed new ones anyway after seeing mine. I saw them side by side and the Pedders parts seemed made of denser material. Have you compared them? Do some research and there are posts by Pedders where they say, in the case of the GTO, their mounts crush too, maybe just not quite so fast. There is only so much that can be done about it. They suggested, if you want to maintain maximum performance and tire life, that it might be a good idea to replace the mounts yearly.
This post was started by me for the sole purpose of letting my fellow G8 owners know that the G8 MAY have a problem like has been reported by GTO owners and to look for early signs of trouble before it costs you a set of expensive tires.
If you think it is BS or a sales pitch, don't check. You are a big boy. You have been made aware of a potential problem. After that it is totally up to you how or if you deal with it. I would love it if Holden are right and the G8 does not have the problem the GTO has. Only time and miles will tell. Until then, I think even people with half a brain would do the prudent thing and keep closer tabs on their tire wear, just in case.

I didn't mean to give the wrong impression....trust me i know all about "American" made. I've been a Chevy fan my whole life....till just recently. I Had 3 new Chevy's. 05 impala, 05 Monte, 06 Caddy. All had major problems within the first 1500-2000 miles. Dealer response was just like you said...all bs...Being in the maint field for the last 28+ years, i know a thing or two...the Impala for example, purchased new with 10 miles on clock, 1500 miles later needed new tires cause the insides were worn out...bad. The service rep said that i was making too many left turns! He was SERIOUS! I talked to the owner and right there traded the car in for the new Monte SS. It had only 6 miles on the clock. 800 miles later, she overheats. Service rep did not believe me. Says that this car has so many computers controlling everything that it was impossible to overheat. I was like dude, you're on crack. Drove the car home, let it idle for about 1/2 hour and bam, boiling over...temp guage pegged and big red light in cluster flashing, but this time i was prepared, had my video camera ready. Took evidence to dealer....and he was like wow...(he was fired). Pissed, got rid of it for the caddy. CTS, not bad...till the tranny went at 14K.....you guessed it, traded it in for the 07 BMW, 4K miles on it no worries, knock on wood, My Jag had 80K hard miles on it, no problems, never had any issues even with me beating the crap out of it.
As you know, traded my jag in for the G8...only one reason why i did that. 6 liters. The corvette was on my hit list, but being a dime a dozen the G8 was a car that had potential for me and was a bit more confortable. So, i'm fully aware of what i have and what will be needed to get this car to perform at the "performance" level. Stock parts on these cars will fail fast. My motto has always been, you get what you pay for.

Too many left turns! Holy crap. These are the people that decide what is warrantied or not. Unbelievable. totally unbelievable. If this crap doesn't give you the headshakes, nothing will.

Front tire wear is going to be a big issue on the G8, with or without a Pedders kit. I'm at 5,000 miles now, and going in for rotation. Usually I would put a ballance on as well, but that seems fine. We'll see tommorrow. By the way, anyone with 19's have factory chrome valve stems? I think I got ripped off. Mine are basic black.

Front tire wear is going to be a big issue on the G8, with or without a Pedders kit. I'm at 5,000 miles now, and going in for rotation. Usually I would put a ballance on as well, but that seems fine. We'll see tommorrow. By the way, anyone with 19's have factory chrome valve stems? I think I got ripped off. Mine are basic black.

Mine are basic black as well. I just went out in the garage and checked the 19's I pulled off the car.

Now I don't feel so bad. The chrome does look really good, maybe I'll change out and get a balance anyway. Can't afford the wheels you've got on now, that's for sure. They do look good.

don't tell me the front is going to wear.

I sold my Diamonte for that reason.

The dealership couldn't believe that I sold the car for that reason.

I'm not saying "start panicking", But pay close attention to, #1 tire pressure, and #2 how does your car feel/handle and #3 keep a close watch on your tire wear and you'll be fine. That's all.

1st there was oil pressure sensors,
2nd there was tire pressure sensors
next, we need radius rod sensors.......


hey, a guy can dream!

If only it was a perfect world, huh Rob? I've got my G8 and it's a keeper.

1st there was oil pressure sensors,
2nd there was tire pressure sensors
next, we need radius rod sensors.......


hey, a guy can dream!

1st there was oil pressure sensors,
2nd there was tire pressure sensors
next, we need radius rod sensors.......

hey, a guy can dream!

And I'm dreaming of a BS sensor.

LOL as I run away from all the flying red things being thrown at me. :D

And I'm dreaming of a BS sensor.



I take it by "BS sensor" you mean Better Steering sensor, right?:bs: Even the smilie wants Better Steering!

I take it by "BS sensor" you mean Better Steering sensor, right?:bs: Even the smilie wants Better Steering!

Clever! :D I was thinking more along the lines of "Bushing Shenanigans" ;)

Speaking of which, what did you do with all your take-off OEM bushings and struts? I'll happily take them off your hands, even the "collapsed" ones. :)

In the trash.

Too many left turns! Holy crap. These are the people that decide what is warrantied or not. Unbelievable. totally unbelievable. If this crap doesn't give you the headshakes, nothing will.

Don't believe him. His credibility is shot here.

Don't believe him. His credibility is shot here.

Isn't that the truth.

Don't believe him. His credibility is shot here.


Where did that come from? I don't see any of your credentials.

Where did that come from? I don't see any of your credentials.

We can start with what I don't have:

I don't have a "4500 lb. Jag X type with 380 HP that runs 13.7 @113 MPH in the Q-M, and handles 'much better' than the G8 and can even take mountain roads at 100 mph. Oh, and it eats Cobras for lunch." :drink:That right there would shoot to hell anyone's credibility, no?

If "Racer X" knew *anything* about his so-called Jaguar that he put 15,000 dollars of modifications into, unless he carries forty bags of sand in the boot, he'd know that it in-fact only weighs >3500 lbs., and he'd *have* to know that a Ford Mondeo chassis (yes, the X type chassis was designed by FoMoCo in 1993) would never out-handle a Pontiac G8...

How am I doing? :)

My bad, I didn't realize you were refering to "Racer X". I don't have any of that stuff either.

I did go through "mountain roads" at well over 100 mph. Once "stock", which I wouldn't recomend. Once with the Pedders. I don't miss the stock feeling whatsoever.

My bad, I didn't realize you were refering to "Racer X". I don't have any of that stuff either.

I did go through "mountain roads" at well over 100 mph. Once "stock", which I wouldn't recomend. Once with the Pedders. I don't miss the stock feeling whatsoever.

Pedders sounds fun! Wifey won't let me modify "her" new car yet. Maybe when she's not looking? :wink2:

Re: 100 mph on mountain roads...
I sure wouldn't try that in a Ford Contour or a Mercury Mistique though (same chassis as a Jaguar X-type). Would you?

I wouldn't, personally.

I looked on some GTO boards ad saw that some thought it had to do with the cars being lashed down very tightly on the boats to get them here. I don't know it is valid or BS. It is just what I read.

This is 100% true. they start off putting spring blocks in the front springs, then chain the front end down very tight, which puts a serious amount of upper push on the strut bush for weeks. It is not just upper push. It is also waive action.

mike
dms

Well, I am not a "sky is falling" kind of guy and most of you know I don't hold Pedders in very high regard but they may know something about these strut bearings/bushings. I went to change the oil this evening and noticed the tops of the towers looked odd. There are marks from the struts obviously moving around and clear space between the top of the tower and the bottom of the plate. The passenger side is the most noticable.

This is at 3800 miles.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1350&stc=1&d=1214443508

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1351&stc=1&d=1214443525

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1352&stc=1&d=1214443525

I am calling the dealer tomorrow armed with the TSB and PIC that talk about this issue.

lol, how did my Jag get involved in a Collapsed strut post? I think someone is jelous of my jag...

oh and I forgot the Re:
Jag, AWD, (All wheels gripping the road, tightly, securely)....handles so sweet at 100+ on any mountain road, wet or dry (even if it's on a mondo or Ford Contour or a Mercury Mystique platform or whatever else you can come up with) and 100x's better than any g8 could ever dream of handling, even with all of Pedders bolt on parts. But, hey that's just me...and i still love my G8....but not as much as i love you.

oh, just for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfL3egQ61bU

:bs:

Hey i just found this....they put a touch screen/Nav unit in a Ford Contour or a Mercury Mistique but they left it out of the G8....what gives..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tis3_3Nt4Xc

Well, I am not a "sky is falling" kind of guy and most of you know I don't hold Pedders in very high regard but they may know something about these strut bearings/bushings. I went to change the oil this evening and noticed the tops of the towers looked odd. There are marks from the struts obviously moving around and clear space between the top of the tower and the bottom of the plate. The passenger side is the most noticable.

This is at 3800 miles.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1350&stc=1&d=1214443508

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1351&stc=1&d=1214443525

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1352&stc=1&d=1214443525

I am calling the dealer tomorrow armed with the TSB and PIC that talk about this issue.

Man that is just wrong ! How the hell can they move around like that ? Anyone have a blowup of how these things are mounted ? You would think they would be bolted down.

Does Pedders or anyone else have a different designed mount for this or are we just going to be replacing the strut mounts at every 4000 miles, Maybe I need to do what I did on my Porsche 968 the had a very similar problem design my own, http://www.dynatechmotorsports.net/suspensions/camber_plate.htm

Hey i just found this....they put a touch screen/Nav unit in a Ford Contour or a Mercury Mistique but they left it out of the G8....what gives..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tis3_3Nt4Xc

LOL! You can put diamond earrings on Paris Hilton, and I still wouldn't "drive" her... :wink2:

oh and I forgot the Re:
Jag, AWD, (All wheels gripping the road, tightly, securely)....handles so sweet at 100+ on any mountain road, wet or dry (even if it's on a mondo or Ford Contour or a Mercury Mystique platform or whatever else you can come up with) and 100x's better than any g8 could ever dream of handling, even with all of Pedders bolt on parts. But, hey that's just me...and i still love my G8....but not as much as i love you.

oh, just for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfL3egQ61bU

AWD is better when the going gets slick, like in rain, or snow, or dirt.
On dry roads, AWD just slows ya down and sucks fuel...
If it was any other way, you'd see F1 teams using AWD. Let me know when that happens, kay?

Man that is just wrong ! How the hell can they move around like that ? Anyone have a blowup of how these things are mounted ? You would think they would be bolted down.

The real kick is that this morning after driving into work I was showing the problem to a coworker. They are in a completely different spot than when I took the pictures last night :)

Well, I am not a "sky is falling" kind of guy and most of you know I don't hold Pedders in very high regard but they may know something about these strut bearings/bushings. I went to change the oil this evening and noticed the tops of the towers looked odd. There are marks from the struts obviously moving around and clear space between the top of the tower and the bottom of the plate. The passenger side is the most noticable.

This is at 3800 miles.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1350&stc=1&d=1214443508

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1351&stc=1&d=1214443525

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1352&stc=1&d=1214443525

I am calling the dealer tomorrow armed with the TSB and PIC that talk about this issue.

Rustang, have someone else turn the steering wheel while you look at the strut tops, you will see that they both move, I was told by an Indy shop that this is normal for new strut designs, but maybe they are wrong too?

Yes, the tops of the struts will move under normal use but not in the same sense that I am trying to show in the pictures or explain.

Oye, here they come. They sky is falling, hopefully there's no X member bushings on this car because those are guaranteed to fail and drop out your rear end on the GTO.Matt,

Oye, here comes the bad attitude moderator grinding the same whiny ax since Pedders refused to let him host the Pedders website. Since that day, everything Pedders has gone from "Pete you work so hard you deserve all the success you are having. Pedders is a great product and I love my Pedderised GTO." "To Pedders sucks, Petes a liar and anything you buy from anyone other than Pedders is better."

Stay out of Pedders threads. You have no business here. If you want me to post your emails that back this up I will do it all over again.

LOL. I have to chuckle to myself everytime I read a Pedders-related "bushings may collapse, shock may blow, we'll just have to see" post. Brilliant marketing by innuendo on all the Pontiac forums for the past few years. I'm not saying it isn't good stuff, just the marketing tactics give me a laugh.
Let me see. You have a picture posted by a G8 forum member and you infer that is inuendo. It is a picture. Where does the inuendo come from?

For the record, strut mounts on the G8 and GTO are the same. They wear out just like tires or brake pads. You can pretend that they don't, but it won't stop them from wearing out. On the GTO strut bush wear lead to strut rub. That will not be the case on the G8. There is more clearance between the tire sideway and the strut tube weld. No inuendo. Just the facts.

Btw, Pedders did not start this thread...

I would just like to say thank you to Pedders for letting us know about this problem. I didn't have a GTO :(, so I am not familiar with any problems they may have had. I always monitor my tire pressure and get rotated 5k to 6k, but I wouldn't have checked the strut mounts.

Thanks again Guys

It's like saying, after you get a flat tire, it's time to replace your tires because OEM tires are bad, so you better upgrade to my new tires which will give you a better ride and hold air so much better...

Man that is just wrong ! How the hell can they move around like that ? Anyone have a blowup of how these things are mounted ? You would think they would be bolted down.
The metal plate with the rubber ring is a strut retaining cap. It literally keeps the strut from falling out of the car when the suspension is fully unloaded -- i.e. on a lift. The skid marks you see on your inner fender occur when the strut articulates while the vehicle is in motion. Clearly there is significant motion in your particular vehicle. You can see the witness marks.

Some of that is the nature of the design. Some of that is because of the way you drive. Don't feel bad, I drive the same way. Getting a Pontiac Dealer to warranty this is a different story. Technically there is nothing wrong with the car. It will align and perform to factory spec. For most drivers that is sufficient. Look at these pictures from an OE suspension GTO with approximately 6K on the clock.

http://www.peddersusa.com/PS_images/photos/large/img_1210143195.jpg

http://www.peddersusa.com/PS_images/photos/large/img_1210143677.jpg

http://www.peddersusa.com/PS_images/photos/large/img_1210145335.jpg

http://www.peddersusa.com/PS_images/photos/large/img_1210121288.jpg

These are Pedders 5851 bushes with slightly more than 6K on the clock on my ProCharged Track Driven GTO with 275/35s on 18x10 inch rims.

http://www.peddersusa.com/PS_images/photos/large/img_1210222922.jpg

No innuendo, just the pictures of what comes out of the car. The OE bush was torn and chewed with a cracked strut bearing. Those out of my car driven much harder still look like new. Which would you prefer to have in your G8?

For many of the G8 owners / drivers on this forum that answer is unacceptable. They want there G8 as close to perfect as possible from the factory. Factory tolerance and Pedders tolerances are very different. OEM accept coils with a 15mm variation in height. Pedders measures every coil we ship under load to verify the coil be withing a 2mm variation. Pedders standards are higher than any industry requirements. We pay close attention to detail. It is what you should expect when you purchase a premium product.

Pedders 5851 strut is a Server Service bit. It was designed for fleet service for the VZ Commodore (GTO). It has more rubber, more control surface and is more stable than the OE bit. It will still wear out, but will not wear out as fast as an OE bit. There are limitations to the restriction of movement, strut articulation required in the VZ / VE suspension. A solid rubber mount places too much load on the strut shaft result in restricted steering motion and strut shaft seal failure. Our answer is to max out the amount of material in the bush. We believe we make the best VZ / CE strut mount in the world and back it up with warranty coverage that does not exclude racing or speed contests.

Urethane has the same issues. It has more issues with compression. We have been working on a urethane mount for years. We still prefer the rubber mount. It is more civil. It lasts longer. It is less expensive. It is the your best solution as a GTO owner.

The motion you have documented with your pictures can only be minimised with new strut mounts. It will never be eliminated. Pedders bits will last longer, but will wear out too. The low hanging fruit for a G8 owner starts in the rear with sub-frame inserts, radius rod bushes, castor lock washers and strut mounts. Lowering coils and dampers do wonders. The strut mounts will still wear out after all of this has been done.

Where this gets really interesting is the labor is exactly the same to replace a worn strut mount as it is to replace the mount, coil and strut. The strut mounts are about $80 for the pair. Some informed Pontiac Dealers will be able to replace your mounts under GM warranty. They may also be able to use the labor from GM and Pedders bits if you pay for the Pedders bits. Generally they will note the warranty RO with this information. Some choose to bypass GM and upgrade to Pedders bits. It is the owner's decision.

So to those who think that the OE strut mount doesn't wear out -- you are absolutely incorrect. The car is not unsafe to drive with worn strut mounts. It is just less precise. It isn't perfect. It is acceptable. A Peddersised G8 with a full Track II at retail installation and vehicle purchase prices in well under $40,000. It will compare in performance and handling to cars that cost twice as much. Box stock OE, the G8 is the best sedan GM have ever built at any price including the CTS V. I love my VE / ZETA G8 and so do most of you.

Whatever we post, we back up with pictures and in person during Pedders Day events. There is no innuendo. If you have doubts, come to an event and judge for yourself. If you have doubts in the performance do what we always recommend -- take a test ride / drive in a Pedderised G8.

It's like saying, after you get a flat tire, it's time to replace your tires because OEM tires are bad, so you better upgrade to my new tires which will give you a better ride and hold air so much better...
I don't know who you are, but I do know your logic is flawed. Your G8 has tire pressure monitor that alerts you to a slow leak. You would normally check the leaking tire to see what is causing it to leak and repair it. Some would ignore it and wait for it to go flat. Most would look for the cause.

You can ignore strut mount wear and over time the front tires will also wear because of the excess motion allowed by the worn mount. Then you can buy tires and strut mounts. You could also monitor the condition of the mounts. You can measure the ride height of a G8 to monitor the compression of the strut mount. You can visually inspect the strut retaining caps for witness marks. You can visually inspect the top of the strut mount for wear. You can perform a strut mount spring back test to check for wear. It is routine preventative maintenance. Not all G8 strut mounts are bad. Some already are. Checking is what an informed G8 owner will do.

Strut mounts are not tires that blow out suddenly. They wear out as you drive. The wear can be measured.

I would just like to say thank you to Pedders for letting us know about this problem. I didn't have a GTO :(, so I am not familiar with any problems they may have had. I always monitor my tire pressure and get rotated 5k to 6k, but I wouldn't have checked the strut mounts.

Thanks again GuysYou are welcome. Are you military?

You are welcome. Are you military?

I could tell you, but I'd have to kill ya :wink2:

I just inspected my car and everything looks good at 2600. I really appreciate the heads up on items like this.

and if I do have to replace anything suspension wise, it will be Pedders!

I started this thread because my mounts showed premature signs of wear. When set side by side with a new mount it was very visible. The OEM mount was collapsed and tilted at an angle. I postd because I wanted other G8ers to know that the G8 has a problem not unlike the GTO. This way my friends with g8s could check theirs for signs of wear. I don't work for Pedders and thought that if somebody with nothing to gain could show an example of something Pedders had already brought to this group's attention, it might be better accepted than if it came from Pedders seeing how some people on this sight seem to be real Pedders haters for some reason totally beyond me.

The Pedders pieces work. Period. I tried them. I know. I am totally happy. Beyond happy with the handling and ride of my G8. I am equally happy with the service I got from Frank at Rocksand Racing, Pedder's #1 dealer. Every single interaction I have had with pedders and their products have been first rate.

End of rant!

I could tell you, but I'd have to kill ya :wink2:


We apreciate your service and sacrifice for our country. Stay safe.

Let me see. You have a picture posted by a G8 forum member and you infer that is inuendo. It is a picture. Where does the inuendo come from?

For the record, strut mounts on the G8 and GTO are the same. They wear out just like tires or brake pads. You can pretend that they don't, but it won't stop them from wearing out. On the GTO strut bush wear lead to strut rub. That will not be the case on the G8. There is more clearance between the tire sideway and the strut tube weld. No inuendo. Just the facts.

Btw, Pedders did not start this thread...

I'm so honored to be quoted! LOL

Yes, bushings wear out. So do tires. And bulbs. And socks. And over time lots of other things. Nothing lasts forever. Some things do last longer however. I have some jockey boxer briefs that have at least 120,000 miles on them.

Oddly, the GTO Class Action doesn't mention the word "bushing." And there is serious money on the line, you'd think they would hilite the word "bushing." And the NHTSA findings list several causes to the infamous GTO "tire rub," none of which are "bushings."

I've put some popcorn on and the Lazyboy is warmed up... this is going to get good.

Well, I am not a "sky is falling" kind of guy and most of you know I don't hold Pedders in very high regard but they may know something about these strut bearings/bushings. I went to change the oil this evening and noticed the tops of the towers looked odd. There are marks from the struts obviously moving around and clear space between the top of the tower and the bottom of the plate. The passenger side is the most noticable.

This is at 3800 miles.

I am calling the dealer tomorrow armed with the TSB and PIC that talk about this issue.

Hold on cowboy. Try this:

Go out to the driveway or garage and start your G8. Pop the hood. Now, while standing outside the drivers door turn the wheel full left lock and watch the left strut mount.

Your frame is broken!

Just kidding ;)

Yes, the strut mount moved. Turn the wheel full right and it will move again, the other way.

Lemon Law!!!

Just kidding again.

This is going to be fun :D

[QUOTE=need4spd;62494]Rustang, have someone else turn the steering wheel while you look at the strut tops, you will see that they both move, I was told by an Indy shop that this is normal for new strut designsQUOTE]

duh

This is 100% true. they start off putting spring blocks in the front springs, then chain the front end down very tight, which puts a serious amount of upper push on the strut bush for weeks. It is not just upper push. It is also waive action.

mike
dms

I have read that Holden cars suffer suspension damage during shipping!!! It's on all the forums, so it must be true. Besides, think about it, they "chain the front end down!!!"

I sure hope someone alerts BMW, Honda, Mercedes, Toyota, and the lot that these "ship"pers are destroying our cars before they even get to the US!!!!!!! It's been going on for years without our knowledge! That is OBVIOUSLY why many manufactures have finally given in and started building their cars here in the US; avoid all the damage done by the chains! Those "ship"ers have NO idea how to prepare a car for transport on the open seas. Imagine the damage caused by "waive action!!!" Especially considering these cars "have the same busings as the GTO." Gasp!

Mach 5, I'm not sure how to take your posts, as trying to get the inflection from typed words is very difficult. But it seems that your being very sarcastic about the whole thing.

What are your credentials that show why you seem to be such an expert in this subject?

None of the manufactures that you've listed use the same type of mount setup, thus don't have the same types of failures.

We've been dealing with this problem for 4 years now, i think it's safe to say that we know a little more about it than you do.

Yes, bushings wear out. So do tires. And bulbs. And socks. And over time lots of other things. Nothing lasts forever. Some things do last longer however. I have some jockey boxer briefs that have at least 120,000 miles on them.



Mach 5, forgive me for asking but I really don't understand where you are coming here. I know parts wear out. I replaced the struts and springs on my '04 GTP comp g at 20k miles with Bilsteins and Eibachs. We looked carefully at the mounts and they looked fine so we reused them. The GTP had 50k miles when I sold it and I detected no problems.

Based on my previous experiences, I would never have even thought about the mounts on my G8 starting to wearing out, or at least showing signs of collapse and deformation, at 2500 miles. From their early G8 work, Pete or Mike White posted a heads up so we could be aware that there MIGHT be a problem with early wear like they and many GTO owners have experienced. It seemed to me to be more of a sharing of information, not a sales pitch or innuendo.

I saw it with my own eyes. Mine were not looking good. Pedders predicted, from their GTO experience, that exactly what Rstang saw might happen with the G8 too and to look for it so that we might be able to do something about it before expensive tires were also worn out prematurely.

I for one really appreciate that they took the time to bring to our attention the potential problem in text and photos. They even admit that their better made mount would suffer the same end result as the OEM, maybe not quite as soon. They said IF there fear became reality, an annual replacement of the mount, OEM or Pedders, might be a good preventative measure for guys who want to maintain the handling of their OEM or Pedderized G8.

This all sounds reasonable to me and makes me wonder why you seem so negative about anything Pedders related. It seems like there must be some underlying conflict between you and Pedders that is driving your almost ridicule-like comments toward anything Pedders.

If there is something that has soured you against Pedders, it might be helpful for the knowledge-base of the G8 group to know what it is so that we can evaluate your observations and comments fairly and come to some general consensus about your motives as well as Pedders.

On the surface, I see nothing offensive or overly self-serving about Pedders in this strut mount issue but if you know of something I don't, I, for one, would like to know about it so I can better make informed decisions.

Thanks and no offense intended. i just want to get to the bottom this mount issue.

Ed

Nice post Ed, but I don't think it will do anything for the haters.

Thanks Ray. I would like to know the reason behind the haters' attitudes. If Pedders did something unscrupulous, I would to know. If Pete left somebody's sister standing at the alter, I couldn't care less, if you know what I mean.

For me personally, Pete, Mike and Brandon of pedders have answered all my questions, pointed me in the direction i wanted to go and were alway professional. Now that i have most of my Pedders Track II installed (sway bars soon) I can say without any reservation at all that every single thing Pedders told me would result from the installation has been accurate-everything. Add to that how i and my G8 were treated by Frank and Walt at Rocksand Racing and i am really confused about the negativity toward Pedders. I'm trying to get my arms around it and understand it.

Right now, the negativity sounds more bitter than technical but I want, no, I need, to know the underlying cause so I can make informed decisions about how and with whom to spend my money.
Ed

I really could care less about the haters, other than it craps up your thread. I know how my car handles and drives, and my installer was a great mechanic.
My G8 will be at a Indy GTO car show this weekend. Lets see what comments it gets.

I really could care less about the haters, other than it craps up your thread. I know how my car handles and drives, and my installer was a great mechanic.
My G8 will be at a Indy GTO car show this weekend. Lets see what comments it gets.

You are right about them crapping up a thread. I only care if there is something germane we need to know. If not, they are just wasted bandwidth.

Have fun at the show. I did the All-GM Nationals last weekend in Carlisle PA. Had a great time and the g8 got a lot of wonderful comments. Everybody loved the stance too. there were so few G8s (2) that they didn't have a seperate class for us in the fan voting contest and lumped us with '78 and up Grand Prix. There were some really nice looking GPs but my G8 took third place in their class behind 2 really tricked out GPs. Shocked me!

Hold on cowboy. Try this:

Go out to the driveway or garage and start your G8. Pop the hood. Now, while standing outside the drivers door turn the wheel full left lock and watch the left strut mount.

I will say it again, yes the strut mounts will move under normal use. In your example, while turning the wheel from side to side you will be able to see the angle of the cap/disc/retainer/whatever you want to call it change. However what you shouldn't see, and what is present on my car, is a gap between the top of the tower and the cap/disc/retainer/whatever. Not just around the edge, I can see all the way through under the disc. On my car this gap is ~1/8" on the drivers side and ~3/16" on the passenger's. Something isn't right on my car and I have an appointment Monday morning for them to look at it.

If you think I am just a Pedders fanboy search my username in many of their suspension infomercials, er threads. You will see there is no love lost between me and JP. At one point he even banned me from buying parts from any of his dealers :rolleyes:

Rustang,
Points well taken and nobody would ever think of you as a Pedders fanboy. There is something wrong. You can see it and I am glad you reported it. Whether you love or hate pedders doesn't change the fact that something is wrong. The observation that what you are seeing and reporting in consistant with what Pedders was trying to warn us about potentially happening is worth noting and might suggest that they were not just spreading self-serving scare rumors to sell mounts or pump themselves up.

Please keep us posted as to your dealers findings and the resolution. If pedders was right, I would like to know. If Pedders was blowing smoke, I would equally like to know.

Thanks for your post. it will expand our g8 knowledge base and that is really all we want this thread to do afterall.

Ed

Yikes! I've never said anything bad about Pedders, nor am a hater. I think the lowered G8s look great!

As far as the other stuff, like I said I find it all rather amusing.

Just trying to shed some light in an otherwise dark "Thread of Bushing Doom." :)

Sorry if I lumped you in with some others I shouldn't have. No offense intended. The problem with text is it is hard to read inflection.

BTW, I like your avitar. It is nice to see you look like somebody who appreciates the G8's handling.

We apreciate your service and sacrifice for our country. Stay safe.

Thanks, all of us involved with the protecting the lives of US citizens appreciate your support.

I have read that Holden cars suffer suspension damage during shipping!!! It's on all the forums, so it must be true. Besides, think about it, they "chain the front end down!!!"

I sure hope someone alerts BMW, Honda, Mercedes, Toyota, and the lot that these "ship"pers are destroying our cars before they even get to the US!!!!!!! It's been going on for years without our knowledge! That is OBVIOUSLY why many manufactures have finally given in and started building their cars here in the US; avoid all the damage done by the chains! Those "ship"ers have NO idea how to prepare a car for transport on the open seas. Imagine the damage caused by "waive action!!!" Especially considering these cars "have the same busings as the GTO." Gasp!

Amen brotha, I smell a class action lawsuit coming on.

Dude, you need to be a bit more impartial as a moderator, or remove yourself from the position. Your working against the owners of this board, and I don't see how you can continue to be a moderator with your irrational prejudices.

I really don't find his posts offensive. And I think they are pretty easily ignorable. :)

On the subject, can somebody explain to me how the hell strut mount can cause strut rub if the hub assembly is permanently mounted to the lower portion of the strut and the angle of the tire to the strut cannot be affected by the strut mount?

tire deflection due to side force

tire deflection due to side force

then you would have strut rub every time you take a corner at more than 5 mph. Sorry, I don't believe that bushing can create enough difference in that.

The primary cause on the GTO is alignment, the bushings and mounts are a contributing factor.

Why are we talking about GTO stuff on here, it's been gone over many times on LS1GTO.

The primary cause on the GTO is alignment, the bushings and mounts are a contributing factor.

Why are we talking about GTO stuff on here, it's been gone over many times on LS1GTO.

Mike brought it up earlier in that thread.:p My GTO is over 4 years old now, suspension was removed when it was 3 years old (when Pedders suspension was temporarily installed), now it's back to stock suspension and I did not find any issues with it as was listed. My friend's GTO is over 88k miles and no struts rub also on a stock suspension.

What may be fine to you, may not be fine to others. The stock GTO suspension has a number of very weak points,

I'm not sure at the point of your post, but strut rub is only is only a portion of the troubles with the GTO. If you have chosen to take the view that since you didn't have strut rub on your GTO, then that means that the entire suspension on your GTO is fine is a horrible lack of judgment.

Again, what does this have to do with this post?

Thanks Ray. I would like to know the reason behind the haters' attitudes. If Pedders did something unscrupulous, I would to know. If Pete left somebody's sister standing at the alter, I couldn't care less, if you know what I mean.

For me personally, Pete, Mike and Brandon of pedders have answered all my questions, pointed me in the direction i wanted to go and were alway professional. Now that i have most of my Pedders Track II installed (sway bars soon) I can say without any reservation at all that every single thing Pedders told me would result from the installation has been accurate-everything. Add to that how i and my G8 were treated by Frank and Walt at Rocksand Racing and i am really confused about the negativity toward Pedders. I'm trying to get my arms around it and understand it.

Right now, the negativity sounds more bitter than technical but I want, no, I need, to know the underlying cause so I can make informed decisions about how and with whom to spend my money.
Ed

Hate to get involved but go back to post #60, it will shed some light...

Oye, here they come. They sky is falling, hopefully there's no X member bushings on this car because those are guaranteed to fail and drop out your rear end on the GTO.
The sky's not falling. It is what it is.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=641&d=1207444799
http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=643&d=1207444851

then you would have strut rub every time you take a corner at more than 5 mph. Sorry, I don't believe that bushing can create enough difference in that.

Hey dede, how are you?? Let me explain how a bad strut bush can cause strut rub. To start, it is not the collapsing of the bush that I am concerns about.In the case of the GTO, it is the strut bushing not being able to hold the strut shaft in the center of the bush. After collpasing for some time, the strut shaft itself, begins to migrate towards the engine. When this happens the strut bush can no longer support the strut shaft. Then with hitting bumps, corners, atc, the strut shaft starts to float around a lot.

To make it simple, lets assume a typical movemement where the strut shaft moves 90 degrees to the engine back and forth. this causes the tires to flex laterally, so if you get the strut moving laterally, which causes the tire sidewalls to move laterally, they get to the point where the algteral movement does not move or respond at the same rate. Thus the tire is moving inward, when the strut is moving outward. Thus strut contact.

Last week I saw multiple GTOs with 17 inch wheels, with over a pencil width of clearance between the strut and the tire, yet there was recent evidence of strut contact, All had significantly "eccentric" OEM strut mount bushes.

I do not think at all that there will be a strut rub issue of any kind with the G8. This is just a GTO issue at this point

thanks
mike
dms

Hi Mike,
I'm doing good, already driving a Commodore. Click on the link to see (getting it ready for SEMA).
http://www.g8board.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3883

Regarding the strut mount, you still haven't convinced me. The load from a bad strut mount can no way be higher than cornering at 25 miles an hour. Even if it's by 2 inches off, degree won't be enough to create such a high load. The only way I see it happening, it's when the alignment is done with bad struts causing the wrong angle of the tire to the strut. Or if the people are driving horribly underinflated tires.

Hi Mike,
I'm doing good, already driving a Commodore. Click on the link to see (getting it ready for SEMA).
http://www.g8board.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3883

Regarding the strut mount, you still haven't convinced me. The load from a bad strut mount can no way be higher than cornering at 25 miles an hour. Even if it's by 2 inches off, degree won't be enough to create such a high load. The only way I see it happening, it's when the alignment is done with bad struts causing the wrong angle of the tire to the strut. Or if the people are driving horribly underinflated tires.

Well dede, we will have to aggree to disagree. But I can tell you between Frank, Rob and myself, we have probably colectivel observed, and repaired well over 1000 GTOs for strut rub contact. Between the 3 of us, and add pete to the mix to make it 4, there is no one in the country, including anyone in GM, that has more knowledge of the GTO suspension than us. So take it as you will. The example I gave above with at least a pencil width of clearance, and still having strut to tire contact, ad tire pressure, how would you explain it?

mike
dms

Great chatting with you

Matt,

Oye, here comes the bad attitude moderator grinding the same whiny ax since Pedders refused to let him host the Pedders website. Since that day, everything Pedders has gone from "Pete you work so hard you deserve all the success you are having. Pedders is a great product and I love my Pedderised GTO." "To Pedders sucks, Petes a liar and anything you buy from anyone other than Pedders is better."

Stay out of Pedders threads. You have no business here. If you want me to post your emails that back this up I will do it all over again.

I don't do hosting, I used to do development as side work. However, I would like to point you here (http://www.g8board.com/forums/rules.php). Specifically the following section.
Avoid personal attacks. If you don't agree with what someone posted, debate their post... not the person that posted it. If personal attacks are directed towards you either notify administration or ignore the member. In such a large community a person will not agree with every member, if you have continuing disagreements it is best to keep distance from the other member. If a trend happens between two members arguing administration may force space between the two members.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now, but think the post you made serves as a great look into your character.

As for people who would like to see suspension alternatives I would suggest reading what people have used in Australia since they've had this car and parts for it much longer than we have here stateside. Same advice I always had on the other forum.

I have read that Holden cars suffer suspension damage during shipping!!! It's on all the forums, so it must be true. Besides, think about it, they "chain the front end down!!!"

I sure hope someone alerts BMW, Honda, Mercedes, Toyota, and the lot that these "ship"pers are destroying our cars before they even get to the US!!!!!!! It's been going on for years without our knowledge! That is OBVIOUSLY why many manufactures have finally given in and started building their cars here in the US; avoid all the damage done by the chains! Those "ship"ers have NO idea how to prepare a car for transport on the open seas. Imagine the damage caused by "waive action!!!" Especially considering these cars "have the same busings as the GTO." Gasp!

Lets look at some data. We know the GTO left Au with the rear height on a 17 inch wheel, between 610 and 615mm. why is it then that the majority of GTOs, in fact it is hard find a GTO that is not, have the back end lower than the front. Most GTO back ends are in the 585-590mm range while still on the new car lot. This is a direct result of shipping damage due to a very low quality rear spring. For the fronts most GTOs at time of sale, are 10mm lower than they were when they left the port. If it is not shipping damage, maybe it is the salt air shrinking things??

BMW, Honda, etc, would not be caught dead with a low quality design and product such as our front strut bushing, which is actually made by Opel.

Odd that you should mention the class action ivestigatin. In fact, there are 2 groups investigating them. I wil also tell you that they are aware of the bushing issue, because I have been called and asked to give them info on it. I had to decline.

We are not sure about the strut bushing on the G8 and how it will react to the strut design long term. But I have already see them starting to tear at 1800 miles. and already collapsed at 30 miles (after the boat ride)

mike
dms

In regards to my issues. Car was at the dealer all day yesterday. When I brought it in they agreed that something didn't look right but after going over the entire front end couldn't find anything out of spec. I'll keep an eye on things and post anything I see.

In regards to my issues. Car was at the dealer all day yesterday. When I brought it in they agreed that something didn't look right but after going over the entire front end couldn't find anything out of spec. I'll keep an eye on things and post anything I see.

Man, that is frightening, couldn't find anything wrong. Like it was designed to have a gap and wear the paint. Do you know if the disassembled the strut to look at the mount/bushing?

It's not necessarily "frightening." If something is wrong it will have to get worse before they can do anything about it. I will keep an eye on it. They did not disassemble the suspension but they did have it up on the rack most of the day with the suspension loaded and unloaded. According to them nothing was moving around abnormally.

Found this !! looks like a good product !!

http://www.fulcrumsuspensions.com.au/images/stories/products_superpro/spf1590bk.jpg

VR-VE Commodore Strut Top Mount
After stringent testing and design modification, Fulcrum Suspensions has now released the SuperPro Commodore VR-VE top strut mount in Polyurethane, further increasing the range of SuperPro products.


The SPF1590K mount allows more positive location for accurate wheel alignment settings. This is done by reducing the movement at the pivot point that the vehicle forces place on this mount, while maintaining the critical original equipment ride height. This component also makes the shock absorber work more effectively due to less flexing in the top mount, allowing suspension and road feedback to be absorbed by the strut for a quicker response.


There are two kits available with SPF1590K containing the two top mounts and SPF1590BK containing the mounts and replacment bearings.

I could tell you, but I'd have to kill ya :wink2:

I just inspected my car and everything looks good at 2600. I really appreciate the heads up on items like this.

and if I do have to replace anything suspension wise, it will be Pedders!

This is extremly disturbing that people are talking about/ or checking for a major suspension flaw at 2-3k miles:(. But this seems to the norm:dunno:

It's not necessarily "frightening." If something is wrong it will have to get worse before they can do anything about it. I will keep an eye on it. They did not disassemble the suspension but they did have it up on the rack most of the day with the suspension loaded and unloaded. According to them nothing was moving around abnormally.

Maybe frightening was too strong but I am puzzled. At least you have it on record and know to watch tire wear closely. God luck and let us know how things progress.

Man, that is frightening, couldn't find anything wrong. Like it was designed to have a gap and wear the paint. Do you know if the disassembled the strut to look at the mount/bushing?

It is designed to have a gap. Otherwise it would bind on the strut tower. Like JusticePete said awhile back, "Technically there is nothing wrong with the car."

I'm unsure of exactly what is going on as I'm not entirely familiar with the way strut suspension works.

However, is there a way to fix the upper mount of the strut to the unibody?
A way to reinforce the unibody by tying the strut mounts together via a x-brace?
Solid mounts?
Or is the tie-in points at that location as thin as a BMW and thus prone to have a strut fly through?

Only strut vehicle I've worked on was a 94 FD, and it had provisions to lock the strut in place via large bolts coming through holes in a radius around the center of the strut.

Found this !! looks like a good product !!

http://www.fulcrumsuspensions.com.au/images/stories/products_superpro/spf1590bk.jpg

VR-VE Commodore Strut Top Mount
After stringent testing and design modification, Fulcrum Suspensions has now released the SuperPro Commodore VR-VE top strut mount in Polyurethane, further increasing the range of SuperPro products.


The SPF1590K mount allows more positive location for accurate wheel alignment settings. This is done by reducing the movement at the pivot point that the vehicle forces place on this mount, while maintaining the critical original equipment ride height. This component also makes the shock absorber work more effectively due to less flexing in the top mount, allowing suspension and road feedback to be absorbed by the strut for a quicker response.


There are two kits available with SPF1590K containing the two top mounts and SPF1590BK containing the mounts and replacment bearings.

All poly is about the same. the variations has to do with dura (hardness) and the quality of the molds. With that said, Pedders has invested quite a bit in poly strut bushes, and we have been unsuccessful in making a design that we feel is durable enough. The issues has to do with the lack of bonding, if you will that poly has to metal. We have had major concerns with the bonding of the center ferrule in the bushing, and that was on a GTO, where the bushing is sitting 90 degrees to the strut. Now with the G8, the reliability is significantly reduced, because there is a built in 10-15 degree angle into the strut plate, which causes a built in side load of the ferrule to the rubber. So for Pedders, we do not feel a poly bush for a strut mount bush is a good idea.

Now the way to eliminate the side load issue I mentioned, is to replace the OEm strut assembly, with an adjustable coil over. Our coil over does not use the strut plate, and therefore the strut bush will sit at 90 degrees to the strut, without a side load.

We do have a fantastic solution for this strut bush concern that will be coming out at the end of the year. But cannot discuss it at this point.


mike
dms

Sorry to disappoint you, but a urethane version of the strut mount is no silver bullet solution. Urethane is a liquid solid that flows like water under pressure. The neck area of the strut mount is not captured and therefore free to flow. Pedders has had a 5851 style urethane strut mount under development for years. The SuperPro product looks very much like our working model of two years ago. Our newest version has no ribs as they are not required -- urethane flows under pressure. Our newest prototype has no ribs. The entire shoulder is larger so it fit more firmly into the OE mounting cup.

There are three issues that have kept the urethane product from being released as a Pedders bit.

1. Urethane does not bond to metal as well as rubber. The torsional loads that a strut mount is subjected to make a urethane to metal ferule bond questionable for this application.

2. Urethane will sag more quickly in the neck as an uncaptured material. Our rubber mounts consistently out perform our urethane prototypes in durability testing in this area.

3. The urethane mount does restrict movement of the strut shaft. It does hold it more firmly centered. In doing so it places a high load on the strut shaft seal. Higher loads on the strut shaft seal lead to premature seal / strut failure.

I would love to make Pedders urethane mounts available to the North American market. They will cost more than our rubber mounts. We will make more money selling them. The reality is that the best available strut mount for a GTO, G8, Commodore or Camaro is a Pedders 5851 rubber mount.

Keep in mind, there is no issue with the mount documented to date. There is NO strut rub. There is NO uneven tie wear in the G8 or the Commodore. All the mount is doing is sagging. I have more than 5,000 on my G8 under all types of driving. The tires are wearing even. I do have a complete Pedders eXtreme system on my car. The OE mounts had sagged at delivery.

Pedders position on the G8 mount is no different than our position on the GTO mount. Any time the strut is removed for service you should replace the mounts. The strut mount in a G8 or GTO is a wear item no different than brake pads or tires. They are a modest maintenance cost at roughly $80 a pair. It is not a catastrophe. In short the OE mount appears to have a modest life span. The car is delivered with air and oil dampers. The car performs light years better with oil and gas charged struts. One of the first G8 mods should be an upgrade to gas charged struts all around. When you upgrade your struts upgrade your mounts.

The amount of body flex on the ZETA architecture is less than the prior VZ chassis. It is pretty tight. It does respond well to the 'fifth spring' and you will see a fifth spring from Pedders on my G8 and for sale in the next 30 days.

Pete,
I'm not disappointed at all and didn’t mean to upset anyone in the Pedders barn by posting that, Just trying to get my head around this type of strut mount, and trying to look at alternatives for when I get my car. I had asked about Pedders strut mount but no one really answered my question to busy arguing I guess.

The reason strut mount Problems interest me is that I just got out of my Porsche 968 which had bad strut mount problems for all 944-968 series cars which were pretty similar but much more problematic than the GTO/G8 it seems. I understand the properties of polyurethane quite well and I also know that polyurethane does not bond to metal as well as rubber but it can be done, not quite as well but it can be done. I also fully under stand the torsional loads that a strut mount is subjected to as I have done a little work on this subject albeit on a different car!

See how we fixed our cars in the link below,

http://www.dynatechmotorsports.net/files/Streetable_Camberplates.pdf

We are no longer in business as my "day" job takes up all of my spare time so please don’t think that I’m trying to sell anything to anyone, Been there, done that and sure as hell don’t want to do it again.

I’m just a guys who like to play with suspension and Brakes before I get into the “ I need more grunt thing”, Any input I can get from anyone with knowledge about a car that’s new to me is a plus and I appreciate the Information from all of the vendors and members I have talked to or what I have read in their posts on this forum. Isn’t that what I forum is all about.

Pete,
(snip)

See how we fixed our cars in the link below,

http://www.dynatechmotorsports.net/files/Streetable_Camberplates.pdf

(snip)

I'm glad you posted that, as I was about to ask if a "hard" mount could be developed with a built in pivot if necessary to eliminate the need for a flexible mounting material like is currently used. The ride might be a bit harsher, but you can always control that with damper settings.

Man that is just wrong ! How the hell can they move around like that ? Anyone have a blowup of how these things are mounted ? You would think they would be bolted down.

I'm having alignment issues with my G8 GT. I posted it in the alignment and balance issues thread. I'm stuck in a loaner car and I did tell the dealer about what I learned in this thread, and hopefully they take heed. My G8 has about 1,900 miles on it, and the car, in general for everyone, has been sold here in the U.S. for just a couple of months. I understand wear, but this is rediculously soon. Definately sounds like a DEFECT and not what a reasonable consumer would call normal wear. I don't even know yet if this strut bushing is the issue with my car, but it seams logical. Currently, this is the dealer's 4th try at fixing it; I would have thought this would be easier to track down.

I fully expect GM to fix this. If they don't fix the issue, I'll just have to seek the consumer protections under Florida law. Of course, that is my very last option. I like the car. :(

Still too early in the game and not enough out there to come to all the conclusions that we need to. But for the interrum, I really think the angle of the strut plate, creating all kinds of other stresses on a strut bush that is already marginal, is a concern. For me, and those who are the true enthusiast, the first thing I would do is to convert my struts to our Pedders adjsutable coil overs, as has been done on Petes's G8. It is realy interesting what GM engineering has to say ab out our G8 suspension. The are blown away by the ride quality and handling. Pete has been doing some serious changes and driving for evaluation. He sgtarted off high, and is working the struts/springs lower and lower, until he feels there is an issue with the handling with his entire family in the G8, including all the women's luggage. those of you who know or havd traveled with a woman, let alone a bunch of girls, a guy can go away for a week, with a gym bad, where a gym bag will fill up the hair care products only, for a woman. So to put it another way, Pete is lowering the vehicle lower and lower and observing the effects of handling with the vehicle maxed out in weight. So far, we have not found the limit, and he is getting close to it being low. More to come on this


If I did not explain it well enough, our adjsutable coil overs eliminate the angled plate!
mike
dms

Can we get some side by side comparison pics to demonstrate this, Mike?

Here is a side to side comparison of a G8 with 1800 miles on it. The strut bush on the left is a new Pedders unit. The bushing on th right is a OEM bush that was significantly off centered in the strut tower. Teh picture on the right shows the OEM strut tower on the left as installed by GM with the wheels straight. We have seen worse strut bushes , but I have only comparitve bushes with this one

mike
dms

Nice pics Mike. Looks strangely familair. Any solution, other than adjustable coilovers?

Well, I am not a "sky is falling" kind of guy and most of you know I don't hold Pedders in very high regard but they may know something about these strut bearings/bushings. I went to change the oil this evening and noticed the tops of the towers looked odd. There are marks from the struts obviously moving around and clear space between the top of the tower and the bottom of the plate. The passenger side is the most noticable.

This is at 3800 miles.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1350&stc=1&d=1214443508

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1351&stc=1&d=1214443525

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1352&stc=1&d=1214443525

I am calling the dealer tomorrow armed with the TSB and PIC that talk about this issue.

Your pictures are interesting. Most of the issues I have seen have been related to the left strut. It is interesting that the movement is different. The movement, in itself, is not a major concern, but the differences in movement is something to investigate. I think the issue you are experiencing is I think has to do with the the strut bush positioning, and potentially some mis-alignment of the strut mount, to spring, to strut. They have to be installed in alignment to each other, and you have to be rather fanatic at it. The GM instructions talks about how important the alignment, but do not talk about what the alignment is. So dealers are not very informed at all. Also, on the left side only, after redoing everything correct and exact, I have still seen the strut mount sitting offcentered. The only variable then, is the positioning and location of the inner fender. This issue can also be explained by the inner fenderwells moving, and thus the importance of a strut tower.

So again, the G8 needs some time for all of us to get all the issues documented, and under control. Rest assured, all of us at Pedders are working hard at it.

thanks
mike
dms

I was at Mid Ohio all day on Monday running the car pretty hard. Nothing has changed since that first post. I am keeping my eye on it but nothing more is causing me any more concern.