Well HPDE style, not wheel to wheel. It was Blackhawk Farms in South Beloit, IL. What an awesome day! Everyone was great and I was hanging with every car... C6 Vettes, Lotus Elise, etc. I have some experimentation to do with the alignment and shock settings on my car but today was all about learning as this was a new track for me. The suspension mods have been WELL worth it if you ask me. I ran the sways full hard, shocks were set to I think 21 front and 18 rear and I have basically the Pedders road race alignment specs (more caster in front though). I never got any rubbing at any point. I think it's impossible to spin this car out at speed. Coming through corners with heavy throttle is a new experience for me. Going 70mph on a curve, drifting to the outside, and increasing throttle at the same time is something that I couldn't do confidently before.

The trans still works great, the brakes are awesome, and I did all of this on 340 tread wear tires!

I put some pix up in the Media section of the board. Sorry no video! I will have video for my next run though.

Andy

Keep up the good work representing the G8's!

Mike

Nice to see some G8s at the track, really surprises most people. But trust me on this one, it can spin (especially at your power level) and when it does, it is a lot of weight to stop.

You never look at an entrance/exit ramp the same way. Just be careful when you trackout, there may be someone in that lane :)

Just sayin....

I'm still working on the oversteer. I switched tires to some much grippier Yokohamas and the difference is huge! I've only driven them at Road America so far.

I have 3 more HPDEs before winter comes and the engine and tires get bigger :)

Andy

I'm still on stock tires. I need to change that....

Are you using the 6 or 8kg front springs on the XAs?

I love BHF... used to race my bike there a lot. Seems like it would be a little skinny for cars though.

Sounds like your car did well there.

It's great for cars, I think I went 5 times this year!

Andy

How do I get involved in HPDE, and find out what is closest to me. Blackhawk Farms is probably about three hours for me. I really want to get this thing out on the track and get some driving skill.

Cool, I hope to play like this one day...

rightfootdown
hookedondriving
scda
pdadrivingschool


I'm sure there are also a few more. Google any of those and sign up for the novice group. I would suggest having your brake fluid flushed and replaced with high temp fluid. Tires, hoses and belts need to be good. Pick up a SA2005 approved helmet and you should be set. Don't get scared into needing anything more for your first few times out. Just listen to the instructor and you won't out drive the ability of your car.

rightfootdown
hookedondriving
scda
pdadrivingschool


I'm sure there are also a few more. Google any of those and sign up for the novice group. I would suggest having your brake fluid flushed and replaced with high temp fluid. Tires, hoses and belts need to be good. Pick up a SA2005 approved helmet and you should be set. Don't get scared into needing anything more for your first few times out. Just listen to the instructor and you won't out drive the ability of your car.

Wow, thanks a lot! The first two have several events this year that could work for me. I was wondering about brake fluid. I also have a set of wheels and tires for snow, but now that we have three vehicles the G8 doesn't put its snow shoes on anymore so I've considered using those wheels for track days with some decent tires to keep the stockers good a little while longer.

Keep checking them as they add more as the season gets closer. I have been using the stock 19 inch rims with the factory summer only tires (Bridgestones).

In my experience, you have more fun the second or third HPDE. The first was a little overwhelming for me and I felt like I was always in the way. I only caution you that as the OP mentions, it is addicting. Next you will upgrade brake pads, then some bushings, then coilovers and on and on, then you will be looking for a Z06 or Cayman.

It's all good fun.

Also - on the helmet, I just remembered that SA2010 helmets are out. Usually they let you go back one so you can use SA2005 or SA 2010. Depending on price, you may want to pick up a SA2010 so you can get more life from it. Be careful about getting anything older as they may not let you use it at the track.

Realsquash - is Autobahn far from you? I may go there on May 2 for Hooked on Driving

Realsquash - is Autobahn far from you? I may go there on May 2 for Hooked on Driving

I'm already signed up :)

I'm doing most if not all of the track days at Blackhawk farms again this year since that track is 20 minutes from my house. It's a great place, no pressure, etc.

Andy

Here is a good read for those interested in Performance Driving, this is what we gave out to our students back in the days when the SVTOA was still around and I had my Cobra.
www.shopnapp.com/HPDEhandbook.pdf

Mike

Glad you enjoyed the racing, all of you. And, yes, it is addicting. I had a 2000 Firebird V6 convertible for my first autox. One year later, I went and bought a 2000 WS-6 (traded the V6). Autoxed that for 2 years, then did a track day. 1 year after my track day, I bought a Saturn, and kept the TA.

Literally that night, with the window sticker in the Saturn, I ripped all the interior out of the TA. Eventually, I won the state championship in the GT2 class with the TA.

I sold it last year because, like any other addiction, it was taking up all my time and money. Now I just have the G8.

Speaking of racing and the G8 ... Hey, realsquash, do you still make those brackets for rear brakes?

I'm already signed up :)

I'm doing most if not all of the track days at Blackhawk farms again this year since that track is 20 minutes from my house. It's a great place, no pressure, etc.

Andy

I'm now signed up for autobahn on May 2.

I plan on doing an HPDE at VIR this summer. What brake pads would you guys recommend?

Keep in mind the brake pad you choose depends more on the type of tires your using, if your just going out on stock tires then using too aggessive of a pad doesn't help. More importantly is bleeding the brake fluid.

mbuono, I don't want to sound like a d!ck (I sometimes come off like that on the internet, as you can't see that I'm a nice guy!), but pads are really going to help more than fluid.

There are two main components brake pads to look for when choosing race pads: heat range and initial torque (a subcomponent is the torque curve, but we'll leave that alone for now).

Heat range - brake pads generate heat. An a$$load of heat. Think of it like this. Even the best racing brake fluid will boil at 600*F. Your aluminum brake calipers will melt at 1220*F. Your car will generate brake temps (measured at at the point of contact between pad and rotor) exceeding 1800*F! The question is, can your brake pads handle that heat?

If your car is somewhat stock, I guarantee that they can't. It weighs 4000lbs. There is no brake cooling (in fact, those stupid dust shields actually INHIBIT proper air flow - take them off). While the rotors have cooling vanes, they're not optimal. All this means that the average street car on track will have HIGHER brake temps than a true race car. They are usually less than 3000lbs (often less than 2000). They have cooling ducts. They have efficient rotors.

You need a brake pad that can handle the heat you will generate. I always ran Carbotech XP12s on my racecar (even when it was a streetcar, I put these on at the track). I got so used to them that when I drove my G8, I didn't know what "brake fade" was. I learned really quick!

The next thing is initial torque. This is what happens when you first hit the brakes. If the pad has a very high initial torque, even the slightest application of the brakes will lead to lockup. Once the ABS kicks in, your stopping distance is lengthened. If ABS kicks in at 95% pedal pressure, then optimum braking is achieved at 94%.

You want a high initial torque, but not too high. You want to have to change your driving style from the street, where even stomping onthe brakes won't make the ABS kick in immediately. This is because a street pad does not have the braking power to halt the tires from spinning until it gets hot. You want to have the ability to make ABS kick on at any time, and then adjust your foot to apply less initial pressure. In other words, the pad is there when you need it.

With this in mind, you want something like a Carbotech XP8 or XP10. From their website:

http://ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp

Carbotech XP8™ (1108™)
A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range (200°F-1350°F+). Carbotech XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Outstanding initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance, very rotor friendly with 100% non-corrosive dust. Excellent as a front brake pad for lighter ITA, ITB, ITC, SRF, H4, H5, and other cars that weigh less than 2,400lbs. Perfect for novice, intermediate and advanced track day (HPDE) use with any tire, and can still be driven safely to and from the track. There are several vehicles that use XP8™ on the street, autocross, and at track day (HPDE) events. Carbotech does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. XP8™ is also a great rear brake pad for almost any race car (Spec Miata-T1/T2/CMC). XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.

Carbotech™ XP10™ (1110™)
When Carbotech unleashed the XP10™ to the general public, and it was an instant success, gathering multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10™ is a very high initial bite friction material, with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1650°F. Due to the high level of friction and bite, this material is recommended for cars weighing around 2,000lbs or more, not including formula cars and cars with brake bias bars weighing less than 2,000lbs. This is the preferred compound for the front of Spec Miata racers, SSC,SSB, T3, SRF, ITS, ITE, H1,H2, H3, H4, 944 Cup, ST, GS, Factory Five Cobra’s and many more Grand-Am/ALMS/SCCA/NASA classes. XP10™ is also ideal for advanced/instructor level HPDE drivers. XP10™ still maintains the highly praised release and excellent modulation, rotor friendliness, and 100% non-corrosive dust that have made all Carbotech compounds so successful. XP10™ is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.

These pads are more expensive than Hawks or other race pads. But, I promise you that you will not ever have brake fade with them.

If you haven't seen them, here are a couple videos that illustrate my point.

The white Camaro you see is the same weight as me. Similar tires. More power (40+). Similar suspension. Similar aero. But, he had huge 6-piston Wilwood brakes. I had C5 Corvette brakes (sliding pin, 2-piston). Although my brakes generated a lot more heat than his, I had pads that could handle the heat.

Notice how he leaves me on the front straights (specifically, into the second video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdWhAtK7J7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMpvPmlXzs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwy29SojKk

Good point 00 Trans Ram, don't worry I don't take anything on the internet personal. I do use Carbotech XP12 in my G8, and yes aftermarket pads help, but not bleeding stock brake fluid before a track event just asking for trouble. I see it at every HPDE I've gone to. I even bleeded the brakes on my last 2 students cars after the first session because they though it don't need it since there car was brand new ( Camaro SS & Audi R8).
I personally would rather had there brakes fading and not having there brake peddle going to the floor coming into a turn. So I still will recommend changing out the brake fluid and you can tell who ever you want don't worry about it.

Good point 00 Trans Am, don't worry I don't take anything on the internet personal. I do use Carbotech X12 in my G8, and yes aftermarket pads help, but not bleeding stock brake fluid before a track event just asking for trouble. I see it at every HPDE I've gone to. I even bleeded the brakes on my last 2 students cars after the first session because they though it don't need it since there car was brand new ( Camaro SS & Audi A8).
I personally would rather had there brakes fading and not having there brake peddle going to the floor coming into a turn. So I still will recommend changing out the brake fluid and you can tell who ever you want don't worry about it.

Good points - excellent points. I wasn't thinking about the safety aspects of fade vs. failure.

Do you guys have recommendations for brake fluid? I've read DOT4... Motul... but still don't know what would be best (or overkill).

-Todd...

So XP8s are only for lighter cars? This will be my first hpde. Although I raced motorcycles for 5 years, so I know some things about tracks. Just not sure how much pad I will need.

So XP8s are only for lighter cars? This will be my first hpde. Just not sure how much pad I will need.
I was just going to ask the same question! It sounds like the XP10 or 12 would be better for the weight of our cars, but the "ideal for advanced/instructor level HPDE drivers" and "recommended only for expert/very advanced drivers" comments are a little troubling to me. Would I (a novice) be better off going with the XP8, despite it being for "cars that weigh less than 2,400lbs"?

-Todd...

I change XP12 pads and use another set of stock rotors just for the track, the day before and drive 2 hours each way, for fluid I use ATE 200 Amber, but Motul is good.

So XP8s are only for lighter cars? This will be my first hpde. Although I raced motorcycles for 5 years, so I know some things about tracks. Just not sure how much pad I will need.
You can call Carbotech 877-899-5024, they can give you the best advise as to what to use for car weight and tire compounds.

With all this great information said, there are many stock cars in the novice class doing their first HPDE. I think if someone wants to try it out once, you can get by with stock stuff for the first day. Just don't out drive the car and pay close attention to the instructor. It would certainly be a good idea to have new high temp fluid, but I can understand not wanting to upgrade pads for the first event. I think it is key to just pay very close attention to how the car responds.

If you like it (and you probably will), the whole ride home you will be pricing out brakes, coilovers, sways, etc, in your head. I'm not saying the mods don't matter, only that you can compensate for them by going slower and practicing your line.

I did my first 2 HPDEs with high temp fluid and stock pads. Then I went to Hawks HP+. Incredible improvement but with some noise. Went back to Hawks Ceramics for the winter and it reminded me how much better the HP+ stopped. I might try something different this year based on the above comments.

All of the upgrades are important, but you can still get out there your fist time and give it a try without a big investment/commitment.

Just get the whole point-by thing down. You point to where you want the person to pass you, not to where you are going and you brake before the turn, not in it....... ai ai ai

For pads, front/rear, I've run:

HP+/stock
HP+/HP+
DTC60/HP+

That last combo was by far the most resilient at the track to say the least. With that combo you can get ABS doing its thing at 80mph. I bought some scanning software to monitor wheel speeds but never got it going before the season was over. I want to disable ABS and give it a go sometime.

I'm running Motul 600 I think. I cooked the fluid at the rear end after the first HPDE with the stock pads.

Keep in mind I always had Camaro fronts and almost always rears, too.

Andy

I've been using Carbotech for a while on my race cars. The um I think XP8 worked fine on Mazda-323 but I've had an issue with the later compounds on the Mustang (I think over years I've used XP10, XP11, XP12). The issue is that they take a long time to heat up, and when cold don't work any good at all. So I spend the warm-up lap warming up the brakes, and they still don't work any good going into the first turn, or even most of the first race lap. Last year I've switched to Hawk DTC-70, and it's simply a world of difference. They work both hot and cold, right from the start.

The Hawk HP+ are not quite up to the track work. They do OK for lapping days/time trials, provided that the sessions are short, the weather not too hot and there is enough cool-down time between sessions. When they overheat and melt, they start wearing out real fast.

BTW, the Prestone DOT-4 fluid from Walmart works just fine.