just off the boat guys!!

strut tower brace!!:driving::driving:


the is gtxgp's car and is the first in the country to have this STB. not even Pete from pedders has this on his g8 yet!


special thanks to eric seaman for the help today

Let me guess, and it has a price tag of 200 bucks....

$252.16

Cool. Please expand a bit on the benefits of this brace.

Is it as easy to install as it looks like it would be?

HOLY SHEEET BATMAN! You got to be kidding me!
252 bucks!!! WOW
let me see if i can figure this out in my head.....
5 bucks for the bar, 10 dollars for the end pieces, 2 dollars in weld, 22.50 in labor cost, and 212 dollar profit!

Nice...
Damn, should have listend to my mom and been a con artist!

kinda looks like the $100 strut tower brace that i bought for my civic 6 years ago... IMO DC Sports make great tower braces at a reasonable price, maybe Pedders should think about sourcing them for future products when it comes to strut bars, sway bars, etc...

i bet a version 2 will be coming out, one that is "prettier" as well as functional..

Sorry, i forgot to add you get the cool badge that says i've been raped...oh i mean pedderized....

IBTE

In Before The Edit.

LOL

Wow.... some pretty harsh comments from people that clearly have never experienced the difference a STB can make on a performance car, NOR can tell the difference between a quality product and eBay garbage. Pedder's only sells quality products that have been tested and proven to be effective and functional... not just knock-off junk that is mostly for appearance. If that is all you are looking for, wait for eBay to offer their $50 bars...

For everyone else that knows what a quality STB is worth then THIS is your source. Thanks Pete and Pedders for coming out with this desperately needed product that really puts the finishing touch on a fantastic suspension setup! Oh, and thanks to Mike @ Torqued for all the long hours you've put in to get the car where it is today :driving:

Adam

I think I will wait. I have installed MANY braces in my life. From medium end to high end. I think this is the highest priced brace for an american car ever. WOW That will now make me rethink their entire suspension.

Sorry, i forgot to add you get the cool badge that says i've been raped...oh i mean pedderized....

Says the guy with the 45,000 dollar Contour....:wink2:

I think I will wait. I have installed MANY braces in my life. From medium end to high end. I think this is the highest priced brace for an american car ever. WOW That will now make me rethink their entire suspension.
Maybe the problem is that you are comparing it to an American car. This is not your POS Civic, Camaro, or Mustang, this is a European quality import the likes of which rivals BMW, Audi, and Benz... and deserves a suspension of the same caliber. If you want a cheap $50 or $100 brace that has end plates made of thin, mild steel and hollow bars then you should stick to whatever car you may have had previously. I for one am not going to cheapen an amazing suspension with cheap, poorly designed parts.

So, like I asked before, what good does this item do me? Seriously, never had a car that had one. What is it for?

So, like I asked before, what good does this item do me? Seriously, never had a car that had one. What is it for?

when in a corner, it keeps the outside wheel level with the inside wheel.... :slap: jk

Must be hot there too for comments like that (110 here today). A bit harsh I would think, it's not like you have forced to buy one!

So, like I asked before, what good does this item do me? Seriously, never had a car that had one. What is it for?
From Wikipedia:
"A strut bar or strut brace is a mostly aftermarket car suspension accessory used in conjunction with MacPherson struts on monocoque or unibody chassis to provide extra strength between the strut towers.

With a MacPherson strut suspension system where the spring and shock absorber are combined in the one suspension unit, the entire vertical suspension load is transmitted to the top of the vehicle's strut tower, unlike a double wishbone suspension where the spring and shock absorber may share the load separately. In general terms, a strut tower in a monocoque chassis is a reinforced portion of the inner wheel well and is not necessarily directly connected to the main chassis rails. For this reason there is inherent flex within the strut towers relative to the chassis rails.

A strut bar is designed to reduce this strut tower flex by tying two parallel strut towers together. This transmits the load of each strut tower during cornering via tension and compression of the strut bar which shares the load between both towers and reduces chassis flex.

Performance: Resulting from the improved chassis rigidity (similar to that gained from a lower tie bar); may be improved steering precision under high load conditions (cornering and braking). Reduced understeer, tire wear and metal fatigue in the strut tower area may also be experienced."

hahahahahaha...spoken like a true salesman!! You know what the very first words of the sale man was when i was looking at the G8....he say's "son" look at that instrument cluster...it goes all the way to 180!!! I was floored! I said to him, do i look like i'm 18 and buying my first new car!

I told him to look out the window, what do you see, he said i see a silver jag, I said, and you know that silver jag has a speedo that reads 165. You know how fast i had it? He said 155, i said no 130 before the governor kicked in, now where do you suppose the governor kicks in on this G8...he said he didn't know......

Being the wise guy that I am, i continued to explain to the salesman, that the G8 has a very square nose, and a square nose on a car...is like taking a brick and tossing it in the air thinking it was going to float through the air like a glider....i told him it be a miracle if the G8 would even comes close to doing 140 safely with that big old nose she's got!

He was like...well where would you go that fast anyway....hahahahahahahaha...

Ok, on a more serious note, come on....252 bucks...hell, does it have titanium? Some other space age metal they just imported from Mars? Aluminum and very basic end pieces that i'm going to have to drill into my new G8 to get the thing to fit!

Hell, your guys did a fantastic job....welds look clean and smooth...real nice....give that man a raise i say! But i can't justify 252 for a bar, then drill holes in my tower......

For all those that are willing to spend that kind of money....go for it!

I have a hard time understanding why it is not one piece. It would seem that the extra connections leave room for flex, which is exactly what this part is supposed to eliminate.

I'm not impressed.

For as many good things as I hear about Pedders, I agree, that's a steep price for a STB. Granted, I don't know what sort or benefit these cars will get by tying the strut towers together or on any other car, really. But, would it really be worth that sort of dough to most non auto-crossers? Most of these cars will be driven on the street and that's about it.

Perhaps a justification of the price point would help calm the masses? Offsetting the R&D, maybe?

Just my $.02

hahahahahaha...spoken like a true salesman!!

*snip some useless story*

Ok, on a more serious note, come on....252 bucks...hell, does it have titanium? Some other space age metal they just imported from Mars? Aluminum and very basic end pieces that i'm going to have to drill into my new G8 to get the thing to fit!

Hell, your guys did a fantastic job....welds look clean and smooth...real nice....give that man a raise i say! But i can't justify 252 for a bar, then drill holes in my tower......

For all those that are willing to spend that kind of money....go for it!
I appreciate your opinions but I do not work for Pedder's or Torqued so I am not trying to "sell" anything, I am just trying to give everyone the facts from my extensive suspension experience. $250 is not that high for a STB... go compare to other reputable suspension companies (not eBay garbage) for what STBs cost for other cars. If you check out BMR, one of the other suspension companies I hold in high regard, you will see that they have STBs for American cars ranging from $150 up to $259.

This Pedder's STB, especially considering the quality, is well worth the price. Feel free to keep being a keyboard commando and bash it without even seeing one first-hand, but that just makes you a troll in my book.

I have a hard time understanding why it is not one piece. It would seem that the extra connections leave room for flex, which is exactly what this part is supposed to eliminate.

I'm not impressed.

The fact that it IS adjustable is what makes this so great... every car is going to be a little different and the ability to fine-tune the fit for your specific car and application is what makes this a quality product.

Under that same assumptions, are you concerned that your tie-rods are adjustable... or do you like getting your Toe in spec? :wink2:

BMR's brace for the Goat is 181.95.

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/GTO.htm

I think their design looks better if nothing else.

a strut tower bar is designed to do one thing and one thing only

eliminate flex between the strut towers by joining them together

the hime ends on this bar are indicative of high end race type strut tower bars which offer you fine tuning and adjustability

you can actually soften the affect the bar has for street driving or extremely stiffen it for road racing.

simply put this bar is not a cheap chinese piece of crap. pedders puts more R&D into their products then any company I have ever seen in the aftermarket business. and I have delt with a lot.

BMR's brace for the Goat is 181.95.

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/GTO.htm

I think their design looks better if nothing else.

The GTO bar uses the factory mounting locations for the STB (GTO came with a STB from the factory), thus reducing the cost because they didn't need special mounting brackets on the strut towers. :)

a strut tower bar is designed to do one thing and one thing only

eliminate flex between the strut towers by joining them together

the hime ends on this bar are indicative of high end race type strut tower bars which offer you fine tuning and adjustability

you can actually soften the affect the bar has for street driving or extremely stiffen it for road racing.

simply put this bar is not a cheap chinese piece of crap. pedders puts more R&D into their products then any company I have ever seen in the aftermarket business. and I have delt with a lot.

See, This is cool. A firsthand account from someone in the know.

And you're right, I have an all BMR suspension under my LaCrosse and it was a pretty penny to get.

Perhaps, also some user reviews from people that have this installed would be nice, I hear body flex could be a problem on these cars.

You are right GTXgp. Considering Steeda is the lowest end product I installed on mustangs through the years. There is a big difference between manufacturers products. All I see is pics, and not detailed ones at that. I cant touch it or feel it and test it, so it is unintelligent to make an assessment of a product based on a half-assed picture with no technical info or type of materials listed. I know better then this and I apologize. It is an awesome suspension. I have talked to G8V8 in detail about his. Charlie

You are right GTXgp. Considering Steeda is the lowest end product I installed on mustangs through the years. There is a big difference between manufacturers products. All I see is pics, and not detailed ones at that. I cant touch it or feel it and test it, so it is unintelligent to make an assessment of a product based on a half-assed picture with no technical info or type of materials listed. I know better then this and I apologize. It is an awesome suspension. I have talked to G8V8 in detail about his. Charlie
Comparing to Steeda makes the Pedder's look like a bargain :wink2:

http://www.steeda.com/products/steeda_billet_strut_tower_brace.php

$319 to $324 for a '05 - '08 Mustang

you guys are too much. lol

Judging by what I know of the pedders quality of the parts i bought and from what i can see in the photos, this looks like a quality piece. At the risk of sounding like a Pedders fanboy, as some have stated in the past, every single claim pedders has made about the benefits of their suspension pieces on a G8 have proven to be understatements based upon my personal experience with them and their products. If you have never tried driving a Pedderized G8, then you have no idea what you are missing.
A STB can make a noticable difference on car but it is not at the top of the list for suspension improvements. On a G8, other pieces like bushes, springs, struts, and sway bars probably come first but after these, the STB is a natural progression.
The stock G8 suffers, in order of serverity, from excessive rear sub-frame squirm, it is under sprung and under damped and it has too much lean for serious road work.
After these are corrected, the next weak link is strut tower flex under heavy lateral loads and this STB should eliminate it.

Charlie, you are a class act and I thought your second-thoughts post took guts. Good job.

Ed

Pedders,
It looks like the STB requires holes to be drilled. Is this right? Can this be installed with the struts in place?
Ed

Hey I wasn't knocking your product, in fact, i think it's a grand ol brace, it's the best brace i have ever seen.....67billion times better than the one on my $45K contour that only cost 60 bucks and was made out of a one piece cold steel, non adjustable and didn't require me to drill any holes in the tower...and weighed a ton, in fact, compared to this piece of pedderized marvel, I'm surprised my contour even ran with it.....might be why it weighted 45 tons.

Anyway, come on, you seriously comparing the g8 to a BMW? And the Mustang is a what??

yes it does require holes to be drilled.

when I installed this I found it easier to take the struts out than to try and fight my way around them.

Hey I wasn't knocking your product, in fact, i think it's a grand ol brace, it's the best brace i have ever seen.....67billion times better than the one on my $45K contour that only cost 60 bucks and was made out of a one piece cold steel, non adjustable and didn't require me to drill any holes in the tower...and weighed a ton, in fact, compared to this piece of pedderized marvel, I'm surprised my contour even ran with it.....might be why it weighted 45 tons.

Anyway, come on, you seriously comparing the g8 to a BMW? And the Mustang is a what??


I have yet to see one post that you have made that makes a whole lot of sense.....

and adam will be able to give a first hand account of how much this bar helps the car by this weekend.

he has just about everything that pedders makes for this car. we were finally able to get the sway bars and radius rod bushings put on his car this week as well.

Pedders,
It looks like the STB requires holes to be drilled. Is this right? Can this be installed with the struts in place?
Ed

You can lower the struts down a it with out loosening them from the knuckle to gain a bit of access, it's easier with them out, but can be done. Just remove the top nut, and jack up the car by the subframe. The strut will lower down out of the way a bit.

Pedders feels that the Strut tower bars should be functional, adjustable, and shiny, (i would prefer red) The mounts that secure it to the strut tower also tighten the upper strut tower itself, in addition to adding a mount point for the bar itself. You can set a bit of pre-load in to the bar if you wanted.

Wow....252 and now i gotta lower the struts! Toss in a wheel alignment afterwards.....Damn, one hell of a brace, but hey it's adjustable right!

I'm going to Rocksand racing to get my bars installed once Frank gets them and we can set a date. Maybe the STB would be a good addition at the same time. Are more bars available now?

Racerx,
Just to get a feel for your G8 experience level, have you made any mods to your G8 yet? What are they?

Looking at the photos of the bar,it appears to be oval and flattened over the motor. I would think this design would allow the bar to flex,round or oval in top to bottom position would seem to be a stronger bar . This bar seems to be more for appearence then performance.

ZERO Mods bro and proud of it. Such fine craftsmanship, why would i want to spoil the car? No, wait, I do have a concealed radar detector, does that count as a mod??

The fact that it IS adjustable is what makes this so great... every car is going to be a little different and the ability to fine-tune the fit for your specific car and application is what makes this a quality product.

Under that same assumptions, are you concerned that your tie-rods are adjustable... or do you like getting your Toe in spec? :wink2:

That's a poor comparison. A better one would be lower control arms for a rear suspension. One-piece control arms are stiff and quiet. Adjustable are less stiff, and noisy. I'm wondering if this piece would be noisy as well.

ZERO Mods bro and proud of it. Such fine craftsmanship, why would i want to spoil the car? No, wait, I do have a concealed radar detector, does that count as a mod??


lmao

how in world can anyone have such hate for a company when they have never even used the product

you sir are the definition of an keyboard commando

Besides, what does the type of MODS i have, or anybody else have for that matter have to do with anything??

You can't be serious in contemplating that because I don't have any mods on my car, I'm missing out on something ???

hahahahaha, come on be serious, 252 for a strut bar that requires me to drill, than a wheel alignment afterwards......and if i don't get it I'm missing out on the best ride of my life???!!! hahahahahahaha....

just off the boat guys!!

strut tower brace!!:driving::driving:


the is gtxgp's car and is the first in the country to have this STB. not even Pete from pedders has this on his g8 yet!


special thanks to eric seaman for the help today


HOLY SHEEET BATMAN! You got to be kidding me!
252 bucks!!! WOW
let me see if i can figure this out in my head.....
5 bucks for the bar, 10 dollars for the end pieces, 2 dollars in weld, 22.50 in labor cost, and 212 dollar profit!

LOL!

Nice...
Damn, should have listend to my mom and been a con artist!

LOL! I bet It weights less than a BBL of oil but it costs a LOT more.

kinda looks like the $100 strut tower brace that i bought for my civic 6 years ago... IMO DC Sports make great tower braces at a reasonable price, maybe Pedders should think about sourcing them for future products when it comes to strut bars, sway bars, etc...
i bet a version 2 will be coming out, one that is "prettier" as well
as functional..
I thinks it's called inflation or something...:slap:
Yeah, but beware of version 2, it'll no doubt cost even more! :wink2:

Maybe the problem is that you are comparing it to an American car. This is not your POS Civic, Camaro, or Mustang, this is a European quality import the likes of which rivals BMW, Audi, and Benz... and deserves a suspension of the same caliber. If you want a cheap $50 or $100 brace that has end plates made of thin, mild steel and hollow bars then you should stick to whatever car you may have had previously. I for one am not going to cheapen an amazing suspension with cheap, poorly designed parts.

Ouch!...:slap: LOL!
BTW...There is nothing wrong with American cars at all. I have driven all brands including RR. and they have used GM a\c systems and auto transmissions. By keeping the prices at reasonable levels U can have more fun until it breaks b\c trust me they ALL break, even Porsche. it's how much it cost to restore and to do it all over gain, that's where the fun is and where the Europeans miss it. But we are Americans and we love to break things...

But that's just me! LOL!

when in a corner, it keeps the outside wheel level with the inside wheel.... :slap: jk

Once upon a time...It all started with the crappy imported FWD which i have never owned. They NEED this and them some.

Must be hot there too for comments like that (110 here today). A bit harsh I would think, it's not like you have forced to buy one!

LOL! consumers see, consumer wants.

It's all good!

Cheers!

Besides, what does the type of MODS i have, or anybody else have for that matter have to do with anything??

You can't be serious in contemplating that because I don't have any mods on my car, I'm missing out on something ???

hahahahaha, come on be serious, 252 for a strut bar that requires me to drill, than a wheel alignment afterwards......and if i don't get it I'm missing out on the best ride of my life???!!! hahahahahahaha....

did ANYONE on here say anything about if you don't buy this bar you are missing the ride of your life?

come on man you are reaching now

try a set of dampers and springs and then tell how you feel about that fine piece of craftmanship.

It doesn't matter what shape the actual bar is. It doesn't matter what Pedders' salesmen and their fans claim. With a single bolted mounting point at either end of the bar you might as well stretch a spaghetti noodle across the engine bay.

Besides, what does the type of MODS i have, or anybody else have for that matter have to do with anything??

You can't be serious in contemplating that because I don't have any mods on my car, I'm missing out on something ???

hahahahaha, come on be serious, 252 for a strut bar that requires me to drill, than a wheel alignment afterwards......and if i don't get it I'm missing out on the best ride of my life???!!! hahahahahahaha....

It is all about a frame of reference. Some people have done it, experienced it, share their first hand knowledge and their opinions have value, like GRRRR8. Others read about it, hear about it from their brother-in-law's second cousin, thumb through JC Whitney and then fill threads with crap as if they really knew anything or as if anybody cared. I was just trying to see where you fell in the spectrum. This is not worth the time it takes to type another reply. I'm outa here.

Ed

How in gods earth you ever get that i hate anything or anybody??!! You are not reading what I'm typing.....

This board is intended to post your/mine opinions, that's all i did, i posted MY OPINION about the brace and how I can't justify spending 252 dollars on a tube that is adjustable and requires me to drill and a wheel alignment....I DON"T CARE WHO MAKES IT. The company who made it or sponsors it, has an investment in it and I'm sure spent some money on research and would like a return on it....which is good. All i said was that I CAN"T SPEND THE 252! ;-)

Hell, I'd be the first in line if it was 100 bucks, maybe 150....but 250!!! I don't care who makes the part or parts.....it's a bar, it's made of aluminum and it's got a threaded end....a blind man who can weld (i can't weld, nor do i have any metal bending clamping etc...tools ) could make one for 100 bucks easy, maybe less.

I did say it looked very nice....and shiny too

RacerX;

I think posting your opinion is not so much the issue but rather the condescending tone you take in doing so. Simply put you rub people the wrong way. It's as if you are intentionally trying to make an argument rather than just stating your opinion. Just an assessment of course, I'm not saying that's your motive but you come off that way. Perhaps, it's a poor attempt at humor, I don't know. One thing for sure you have an opinion, and it's needed here, it's just a shame that you can't seem to express it with out casting a negative light and such animosity.

As you can see I have an opinion as well!

How in gods earth you ever get that i hate anything or anybody??!! You are not reading what I'm typing.....
All i said was that I CAN"T SPEND THE 252! ;-)

Ok. I lied. One more waste of time post. I thought I understood what you typed and got your meaning. I don't think I'm the only one.

Here are a couple of quotes from you and I hope you can see how some people might misunderstand that you were only saying you either can not afford to buy this bar or do not see the value of this bar. Color me silly but it sounds to me like you are calling Pedders con artists, rapists and profiteers. I don't know, sounds kind of hateful to me, but i could be wrong.

HOLY SHEEET BATMAN! You got to be kidding me!
252 bucks!!! WOW
let me see if i can figure this out in my head.....
5 bucks for the bar, 10 dollars for the end pieces, 2 dollars in weld, 22.50 in labor cost, and 212 dollar profit!

Nice...
Damn, should have listend to my mom and been a con artist!

Sorry, i forgot to add you get the cool badge that says i've been raped...oh i mean pedderized....

I think Morris summed it up pretty well. Nobody says you should not have an opinion.
RacerX;

I think posting your opinion is not so much the issue but rather the condescending tone you take in doing so. Simply put you rub people the wrong way. It's as if you are intentionally trying to make an argument rather than just state your opinion. Just an assessment of course, I'm saying that's your motive but you come off that way. Perhaps, it's a poor attempt at humor, I don't know. One thing for sure you have an opinion, and it's needed here, it's just a shame that you can't seem to express it with out casting a negative light and such animosity.

As you can see I have an opinion as well!

LOL!

I can't wait to see the end of this...or how he gets out the $**t list...LOL!

RacerX;

I think posting your opinion is not so much the issue but rather the condescending tone you take in doing so. Simply put you rub people the wrong way. It's as if you are intentionally trying to make an argument rather than just stating your opinion. Just an assessment of course, I'm not saying that's your motive but you come off that way. Perhaps, it's a poor attempt at humor, I don't know. One thing for sure you have an opinion, and it's needed here, it's just a shame that you can't seem to express it with out casting a negative light and such animosity.

As you can see I have an opinion as well!

Nicely put. You said that a lot better than I could.

It doesn't matter what shape the actual bar is. It doesn't matter what Pedders' salesmen and their fans claim. With a single bolted mounting point at either end of the bar you might as well stretch a spaghetti noodle across the engine bay.

?
It looks like three bolts...

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1442&d=1215557299

It doesn't matter what shape the actual bar is. It doesn't matter what Pedders' salesmen and their fans claim. With a single bolted mounting point at either end of the bar you might as well stretch a spaghetti noodle across the engine bay.

Why do you post in Pedders threads? Just curoius.....

You seem to have a disdain for anything Pedders, but continue to post in every thread that involves Pedders......




are you a closet Pedders Fan?
It's ok if you are and want to come out of the closet......

LOL, closet Pedder, too funny!

HOLY SHEEET BATMAN! You got to be kidding me!
252 bucks!!! WOW
let me see if i can figure this out in my head.....
5 bucks for the bar, 10 dollars for the end pieces, 2 dollars in weld, 22.50 in labor cost, and 212 dollar profit!

Nice...
Damn, should have listend to my mom and been a con artist!

To the pedders guys, dont worry about people like this, this dude has probably never had an original thought in his life, I just went through all of this over the last five years on a Porsche forum where I was a vendor for strut braces and adjustable camber plates so I really do feel for you.

During hard cornering, lateral forces are transferred from the wheels to the strut towers, causing the outboard strut tower to deflect outwards as much as 1/8 degree. Handling upgrades such as springs, shocks, tires and sway bars will only lead to increased loads and higher deflections. By stiffening the chassis in this way, the strut brace sharpens the feel and response of the front suspension,

If you car is a only a daily on stock suspention you will never see the benifit of one of these but if you going to do any track/drivers ed/autocross it probably worth the money !!

BTW we were asking $350.00 for ours to suit 944/968 series porsches and I sold every one I ever made which was a total of around 250, the cost to make these is not really that cheap unless your manufacturing 1000's at a time in china which I highly doubt Pedders is doing. so for me $250.00 is bugger all for a quality brace like it looks like it is to me. so far anyway,

http://www.dynatechmotorsports.net/images/products/strut_tower/968.jpg

http://www.dynatechmotorsports.net/images/products/968strut_brace/CJ_brace2.jpg

?
It looks like three bolts...

http://www.g8board.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1442&d=1215557299

The only one that matters is the connection point where the bar is bolted to the plate. A single pin simply acts like a hinge.

Why do you post in Pedders threads? Just curoius.

You seem to have a disdain for anything Pedders, but continue to post in every thread that involves Pedders.

Lately, I actually try avoid most Pedders threads because they turn into a clusterf**ck like this one is. I popped in to see if maybe Pedders as a company posseses even the most basic engineering knowledge and applied it to designing a strut bar. They obvoiusly do not or they wouldn't have used a single bolt as the bar attachment point. Unless it is just eye candy, then my spaghetti noodle would work just as well.

You guys have a decent niche cut out for yourselves, good luck with that. When you sell the types of products that you do you have to expect us engineering types to poke you with sticks every now and then.

The only one that matters is the connection point where the bar is bolted to the plate. A single pin like simply acts like a hinge.

What is your background ? I have now seen better pics and I dont see any issue with strength or durability. Are you a Lazy-Boy engineer? I find it real hard to believe that some of these comments continue after my apology to the vendor. That was a hint for everyone. Dont judge, until u have a personal experience with a product, it makes u look very ignorant. I have posted my feelings about opinions so dont go there. This is a component. In order to have an opinion u would need to test the product. Because it doesnt fit a double wide doesnt make it a bad part. Charlie

Another Pedders thread made insane by people who don't own any Pedders product.

The only one that matters is the connection point where the bar is bolted to the plate. A single pin simply acts like a hinge.



Lately, I actually try avoid most Pedders threads because they turn into a clusterf**ck like this one is. I popped in to see if maybe Pedders as a company posseses even the most basic engineering knowledge and applied it to designing a strut bar. They obvoiusly do not or they wouldn't have used a single bolt as the bar attachment point. Unless it is just eye candy, then my spaghetti noodle would work just as well.

You guys have a decent niche cut out for yourselves, good luck with that. When you sell the types of products that you do you have to expect us engineering types to poke you with sticks every now and then.

I like to consider myself an "engineering type" of the unofficial variety.:)

If the connection had a vertical axis point instead of a horizontal axis would you still feel the same?

Sorry to hijack the thread, I have an uncontrollable need to understand how things work.

What is your background ? I have now seen better pics and I dont see any issue with strength or durability. Are you a Lazy-Boy engineer? I find it real hard to believe that some of these comments continue after my apology to the vendor. That was a hint for everyone. Dont judge, until u have a personal experience with a product, it makes u look very ignorant. I have posted my feelings about opinions so dont go there. This is a component. In order to have an opinion u would need to test the product. Because it doesnt fit a double wide doesnt make it a bad part. Charlie

BSME. +7 years experience in machine design with large material processing equipment and +16 years tinkering around with just about every type of suspension system imaginable.

I haven't attacked anybody, so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

I find it funny how quickly things resort to name calling around here when anybody questions a vendor. I would think bandwidth would be better spent actually having a technical discussion about the products they are offering and not just assuming they are perfect.

BSME. +7 years experience in machine design with large material processing equipment and +16 years tinkering around with just about every type of suspension system imaginable.

I haven't attacked anybody, so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

I find it funny how quickly things resort to name calling around here when anybody questions a vendor. I would think bandwidth would be better spent actually having a technical discussion about the products they are offering and not just assuming they are perfect.

There is no attack here. You can not form an opinion without testing a component. I have worked in shops since I was 6 years old. 20+ year Master Technician. I dont think anyone assumes anything is perfect in life, but on the same note it cant be junk until tested. With your background being what it is u of all people, like myself, should know better. Can some one say a G8 sux without experiencing it? Our comments sometimes make people form opinions they know nothing about. This leads to them being uninformed and having no understanding of why they even feel like that. I was a little out of line, but this went way to far to begin with.

The only one that matters is the connection point where the bar is bolted to the plate. A single pin simply acts like a hinge.

Well, you should realize then, that for this application, a simple wire would serve the same purpose here. The intent is to inhibit the deflection of the top of the strut mount, which hinged, fixed, or wire, you're just tugging against the other strut tower. Yes, a fixed (or dual bolt, or vertical bolt) attachment would be even better, but I don't think its necessary for this application.

In saying that, I'm willing to bet that the G8 doesn't suffer much from this phenomena, due to the rigidity of the chassis' design. I have a DC Strut Tower Brace on my Honda CRX, but when the chassis is made out of paper mache, you do what you can. Its built almost exactly like this piece, costs considerably less. Its not made in Australia though, where labor costs are insane and shipping is about as far as you can possibly get away, while still remaining on the same planet. I assume thats why Pedder's stuff costs a million dollars.

From all the pictures of Pedder's setups, the pictures of the installs, it all looks like decent quality stuff. Same goes for the Roto-Fab stuff, same goes for Haddad's stuff. I'm just completely blown away with how expensive it all is. I'm not cheap by any means, but I won't spend a ton of money just for the hell of it. I guess, as an early adopter, if you want to play, you've got to pay.

I'm not discrediting any of these companies. They all look like super quality parts, we're sitting on a brand new car, which hasn't sold that many units thus far, so supply and demand works very well. Its probably the biggest reason everything is so expensive right now.

With your background being what it is u of all people, like myself, should know better. Can some one say a G8 sux without experiencing it?

I'd say the opposite. With his background, he can look at a picture of a simple device like this, and make a pretty informed opinion of it.

From all the pictures of Pedder's setups, the pictures of the installs, it all looks like decent quality stuff. Same goes for the Roto-Fab stuff, same goes for Haddad's stuff. I'm just completely blown away with how expensive it all is. I'm not cheap by any means, but I won't spend a ton of money just for the hell of it. I guess, as an early adopter, if you want to play, you've got to pay.


My thoughts exactly. I really like all of the things I have purchased for the G8, but most of the parts seemed to be priced very high compared to other cars. There is no reason for this. I would purchase a lot more from all the vendors if the prices were a little more realistic. Another issue seems to be the need to source parts from Australia. We need manufactures here that can build the parts without the import hassles and shipping that add up to extra cost. I'm betting the Pedders parts and others come down in price when U.S. manufactures start actively marketing parts for the G8.

Now back to thread. I love the look and build of this brace and I believe it will have some effect on the tower deflection. If one does not come available from another company in the next few months I will probably buy one.

--Mike

This could go on for ever if I let it.

WOW! This thread is fun... :judge:

WOW! This thread is fun... :judge:

Oh go make a 10sec pass on the VMAX. lol

Will a blower fit under it?

Once upon a time...It all started with the crappy imported FWD which i have never owned. They NEED this and them some.
Cheers!

the Type R versions of civic's and integra's came with factory strut bars, this was done 10+ years ago... todays world, more and more import performance cars come with these from the factory.. my Evo 8 came with one from the factory and people actually paid $700 for a titanium JDM one... THATS INSANE!

Opinions are like A$$ holes everybody has one…No pun intended. LOL!
So for what It’s worth here is mine (less than $.02).

As i said before, once upon a time...On a front wheel drive vehicle the front end\wheels do much more than just steer the vehicle. For starters the weight distribution is out of balance on most except the very high end ones such as Audi. So here you have the tranny, shafts, engine, all in the middle and as you drive the axle shafts are turning, which translate into torque forces on the strut towers while they steer, brake etc.

Moreover, All of this is tugging at the front suspension and wanting to collapse toward each other, sort of, kind of, wanting to get together in the middle. So you may need or want some sort of beneficial extra brace to separate or keep them apart.

I definitely would not add this type component to a Porsche, BMW, MB, G8 or any other well made RWD vehicle unless I wanted a better show look or weaken the strut tower by drilling and making the engine compartment harder to service…Or add the NEED for SPEED accessories...:wink2:

I’m not knocking the vendor or his efforts to make our G8 better; I do in fact applaud them for such, as this component has a benefit. I just don’t see it worth while for this application.

But that’s just me…:judge:

And In case anyone’s wondering what my back ground is, I attended the University of Hard Knocks, with a BS in Jack of all Trades and Master of None.

Hope that helps! LOL!

Cheers!

Mike@torqued: What is the cross-bar made from?

the bar itself is made of aluminum
the plates are made of steel

OK, here's my take. I see two problems with this brace.

1. As Sanddog pointed out, the attachment of the mounting plates to the bar with a bolt allows movement in the vertical plane. This three-piece, non-rigid arrangement allows the bar to rotate around those attachment bolts under stress. A strut tower brace should be as rigid as possible or it won't be doing its job effectively.

2. The brace is not triangulated and this also allows the bar to flex. Granted, there is not an easy way for a firewall mount, but it is what it is, and it ain't triangulated.

I dont have an issue with the bar end adjustments, as they appear to be very solid. Still, overall I don't think this a particularly effective design.

And the price is way too high. A functional strut tower bar does not have to cost much to be very effective - it just has to be designed correctly.

I'll add one more thing. The quote below is full of misinformation.

Mike, you correctly state the purpose of a strut tower brace - to tie the towers together and eliminate their movement.

And the adjustability, although not required, might come in useful for cars where there is a lot of production variance in the distance between strut towers.

You really screw up when you say the adjustment is for adjusting the effect of the bar, for softening the effect for road driving or stiffening it for track driving. Once it's tied down, it's tied down and the only thing you could possibly do with the adjustment is to move the strut tower braces closer together or farther apart (which I doubt the assembly is robust enough to do, and if you did, you'd be affecting the suspension camber, not any ride quality associated with the STB).

I don't have any axe to grind with Pedders. but when marketing bull**** like what I'm reading below gets substituted for solid engineering, I'd suggest the company may want to refocus its attention on actual engineering and not eye candy.

I apologize if my post appears inflammatory but I'm calling it like I see it.
a strut tower bar is designed to do one thing and one thing only

eliminate flex between the strut towers by joining them together

the hime ends on this bar are indicative of high end race type strut tower bars which offer you fine tuning and adjustability

you can actually soften the affect the bar has for street driving or extremely stiffen it for road racing.

simply put this bar is not a cheap chinese piece of crap. pedders puts more R&D into their products then any company I have ever seen in the aftermarket business. and I have delt with a lot.

I appreciate you calling this out like it needs to be. I'm pretty much over how this company puts out half-assed products and then proceeds to say the way they do it is the best, when it is obvious to anyone with experience that this is pure BS.

An maximally effective strut tower brace is one piece, period. The only reasons to make one with moving/adjustable components would be:
1) Manufacturing variations (as you describe below), or;
2) Slapping pieces/components together from other products

Since there is no reason to assume manufacturing variations on this vehicle (it is an excellent design), I opt for the latter reason - I would bet money that this bar is part of a modular setup utilizing pieces of another, previously built bar already on their shelves.

It's getting tiring addressing the BS coming from these folks (e.g. a solid sway bar is superior to a hollow bar, when in fact it really is just way cheaper and much easier to manufacture), but it needs to be done so members of this board can make educated decisions.

I'll add one more thing. The quote below is full of misinformation.

Mike, you correctly state the purpose of a strut tower brace - to tie the towers together and eliminate their movement.

And the adjustability, although not required, might come in useful for cars where there is a lot of production variance in the distance between strut towers.

You really screw up when you say the adjustment is for adjusting the effect of the bar, for softening the effect for road driving or stiffening it for track driving. Once it's tied down, it's tied down and the only thing you could possibly do with the adjustment is to move the strut tower braces closer together or farther apart (which I doubt the assembly is robust enough to do, and if you did, you'd be affecting the suspension camber, not any ride quality associated with the STB).

I don't have any axe to grind with Pedders. but when marketing bull**** like what I'm reading below gets substituted for solid engineering, I'd suggest the company may want to refocus its attention on actual engineering and not eye candy.

I apologize if my post appears inflammatory but I'm calling it like I see it.

you need to check yourself, and the attitude.

Just about everything that Mike posted is correct, i'm not sure that it's aluminum, but it's an alloy,

so when you go off on 'bull****', make sure your own facts straight.

I apologize if my post appears inflammatory but I'm calling it like I see it.
:wall:

I'll add one more thing. The quote below is full of misinformation.

Mike, you correctly state the purpose of a strut tower brace - to tie the towers together and eliminate their movement.

And the adjustability, although not required, might come in useful for cars where there is a lot of production variance in the distance between strut towers.

You really screw up when you say the adjustment is for adjusting the effect of the bar, for softening the effect for road driving or stiffening it for track driving. Once it's tied down, it's tied down and the only thing you could possibly do with the adjustment is to move the strut tower braces closer together or farther apart (which I doubt the assembly is robust enough to do, and if you did, you'd be affecting the suspension camber, not any ride quality associated with the STB).

I don't have any axe to grind with Pedders. but when marketing bull**** like what I'm reading below gets substituted for solid engineering, I'd suggest the company may want to refocus its attention on actual engineering and not eye candy.

I apologize if my post appears inflammatory but I'm calling it like I see it.

I appreciate you calling this out like it needs to be. I'm pretty much over how this company puts out half-assed products and then proceeds to say the way they do it is the best, when it is obvious to anyone with experience that this is pure BS.

An maximally effective strut tower brace is one piece, period. The only reasons to make one with moving/adjustable components would be:
1) Manufacturing variations (as you describe below), or;
2) Slapping pieces/components together from other products

Since there is no reason to assume manufacturing variations on this vehicle (it is an excellent design), I opt for the latter reason - I would bet money that this bar is part of a modular setup utilizing pieces of another, previously built bar already on their shelves.

It's getting tiring addressing the BS coming from these folks (e.g. a solid sway bar is superior to a hollow bar, when in fact it really is just way cheaper and much easier to manufacture), but it needs to be done so members of this board can make educated decisions.

Mr Sandyguy,
You don't have any pedders parts on your car, and you feel you have the balls to call our product half-assed,

Take your BS and buy something else, stop posting in a Pedders thread, and as always, have a great day.

Well, you should realize then, that for this application, a simple wire would serve the same purpose here. The intent is to inhibit the deflection of the top of the strut mount, which hinged, fixed, or wire, you're just tugging against the other strut tower. Yes, a fixed (or dual bolt, or vertical bolt) attachment would be even better, but I don't think its necessary for this application.



If all you were trying to do was limit the towers spreading apart, then yes, a tensioned wire would help. Underload the towers, if underdesigned will move toward each other, or less likely, up and down, in which case the tensioned wire is useless. With the single bolts at the ends and the lack of triangulation that bar isn't doing much of anything other than looking pretty, which I'll admit, it looks pretty.

Zaphod B summed it up pretty well, what Mike posted is wrong.

It's heim, H-E-I-M, heim.

Just like an engine cover, if somebody wants some eye candy for under the hood at a car show it is fine. But don't tell me the engine cover makes the car ride sooo much better.

Mr Sandyguy,
You don't have any pedders parts on your car, and you feel you have the balls to call our product half-assed,

Take your BS and buy something else, stop posting in a Pedders thread, and as always, have a great day.

1) I can post whatever I want, wherever I want. If you don't like what I say, then refute it with facts instead of trying to order me around like your corporal. In other words, I'm not your boy. :wink2:

2) I don't need to buy your piece of crap strut tower brace to see it is an inferior design. Anyone with engineering background, experience, or half a brain can see this. :judge:

3) If you guys just admitted that you were too lazy to make a proper brace, or too cheap to make a proper sway bar, you wouldn't be getting called out like this. :slap:

so when you go off on 'bull****', make sure your own facts straight.
I don't see you offering any additional information.

Tell you what. If you keep your product offerings in your sponsor section forum, I'll keep out of the threads. But if you are selling stuff in a common forum, I reserve the right to call you or anyone else on any product that doesn't appear to live up to whatever claims are being made for it.

well, you posted it so it must be true.

gotta love the internet.

A Paying vendor posts that he has a new product available, and a small group of haters feels they need to trash the post, this to me is unacceptable, but i don't run the site.

I don't see you offering any additional information.

Tell you what. If you keep your product offerings in your sponsor section forum, I'll keep out of the threads. But if you are selling stuff in a common forum, I reserve the right to call you or anyone else on any product that doesn't appear to live up to whatever claims are being made for it.

for what purpose, so i can have people that are 'experts' tell me all the things i'm wrong about, and what our engineers did wrong.

This thread was going just fine until 3 people with little to no respect felt the need to exercise their internet penis.

A Paying vendor posts that he has a new product available, and a small group of haters feels they need to trash the post, this to me is unacceptable, but i don't run the site.
Rob, you need to understand a couple of things.

First, being a paying vendor does not give you a pass on critical examination of your product. Second, people who question your products are not haters. They are critical thinkers who want others to get their money's worth for performance parts.

for what purpose, so i can have people that are 'experts' tell me all the things i'm wrong about, and what our engineers did wrong.

This thread was going just fine until 3 people with little to no respect felt the need to exercise their internet penis.
Now you are offering ad hominem attacks rather than any kind of engineering analysis of why we 3 people might be wrong.

:bs:

On the aussies forums people are saying that the VE/G8 front end doesn't even need a Strut brace...

Just about everything that Mike posted is correct, i'm not sure that it's aluminum, but it's an alloy,

If it's made from "aluminum", it is an alloy. Pure aluminum is too soft to be of much use. Annealed 99.99% pure aluminum has a strength about 1/3 that of pure gold; the highest level of hardening only takes it up to approximately what gold is. Elements are added to it to make it strong enough for structural use. Once something is added to it, it is technically referred to as an "alloy". Since virtually everything that is made from "aluminum" is made from an "aluminum alloy", it is generally acceptable to drop the "alloy" part.

I'm not a metallurgist, but when i think of aluminum i think of cast aluminum, which is brittle. This may be aluminum, but in a mix that makes it not brittle. Know what i mean?

We're going to need the worlds largest popcorn ball for this one gentlemen...
http://www.noblepopcorn.com/photos/popcorn-ball-1.jpg
I love how the vendors treat their customers here.

lol, looks like the worlds largest nut sack,

I'm not a metallurgist, but when i think of aluminum i think of cast aluminum, which is brittle.

Stop thinking like that, then. 356 is certainly brittle. But, there are casting alloys that have ductility similar to wrought alloys. And there are wrought alloys that are brittle like 356.

It's probably 6061 or some type of 6000 series extruded aluminum alloy.

The benefit of a 3-piece is not just the build variances but more importantly, the adjustable preload. To avoid a very common error in installing this tower bar, I recommended you raise your vehicle when mounting so that the load of the shock upper mounts on the shock towers is relived and balanced throughout. When raised and the tower bar is placed onto the vehicle, the preload can be adjusted and preset. After it is bolted on and the vehicle is lowered, each shock tower will have equal load and will prevent independent movements of each shock. This will provide an extremely noticeable difference after the installation. If the tower bar is installed while the vehicle is not raised, great benefits will be missed. All of you "engineers" can think what you want to, but there is a reason that 90% of the STBs out there are adjustable, go google it and see for yourself.

Also, the end plates are 100% steel for maximum strength and durability. Usually, your extremely budget tower bars use aluminum end plates, which are highly subject to deformity and breaking. The steel end plates are engineered for durability, so that the stress properly transfers to the bar, and does not overstress the welds and mounting brackets.

Considering I am the only one on this forum WITH a STB installed on my G8 at this point, I am not sure if anyone else has room for commentary on its efficiency or otherwise.

The benefit of a 3-piece is not just the build variances but more importantly, the adjustable preload. To avoid a very common error in installing this tower bar, I recommended you raise your vehicle when mounting so that the load of the shock upper mounts on the shock towers is relived and balanced throughout. When raised and the tower bar is placed onto the vehicle, the preload can be adjusted and preset. After it is bolted on and the vehicle is lowered, each shock tower will have equal load and will prevent independent movements of each shock. This will provide an extremely noticeable difference after the installation. If the tower bar is installed while the vehicle is not raised, great benefits will be missed. All of you "engineers" can think what you want to, but there is a reason that 90% of the STBs out there are adjustable, go google it and see for yourself.

Also, the end plates are 100% steel for maximum strength and durability. Usually, your extremely budget tower bars use aluminum end plates, which are highly subject to deformity and breaking. The steel end plates are engineered for durability, so that the stress properly transfers to the bar, and does not overstress the welds and mounting brackets.

Considering I am the only one on this forum WITH a STB installed on my G8 at this point, I am not sure if anyone else has room for commentary on its efficiency or otherwise.

I think I said that a 100 posts ago! :wink2:

Considering I am the only one on this forum WITH a STB installed on my G8 at this point, I am not sure if anyone else has room for commentary on its efficiency or otherwise.

Awwww, man, just when it was getting entertaining...

:whine:

Interesting thought though - how would the Pedders guys feel if they announced a new product and No One Cared enough to comment?

I have noted that the first posters to use name-calling and characterizations are usually the ones on the failing side of the argument.

But the "internet penis" bit is destined to become a classic. :)

lol, it is good entertainment isn't it, lol

People can lay their "internet penises" on their keyboards for us all to see if they want to. They can throw their personal attacks around all they want. The manufacturer reps can claim anything they want. Basic dynamics tells us it will do nothing.

A Paying vendor posts that he has a new product available, and a small group of haters feels they need to trash the post, this to me is unacceptable, but i don't run the site.

Yeah, it would be much easier for you if a bunch of stupid people with big fat wallets opened them to send you their money because you said they should, wouldn't it?

Poor little baby, my heart bleeds for you. http://performancetrucks.net/forums/images/smilies2/violen.gif

Poor little baby, my heart bleeds for you. http://performancetrucks.net/forums/images/smilies2/violen.gif
thanks, i feel special now
:wink2:

Point is, this was a post started by a vendor, to show a new product. It was NOT a member that posted asking info about it. The reason (like it or not) that this site exists, is because of paying vendors. Your posts were not welcomed, and it seems the couple people like to work together to bash any Pedders post, and this needs to stop now. If a vendor posts about a new product, and you feel you don't like it, then stay out of the thread.

thanks, i feel special now
:wink2:

Point is, this was a post started by a vendor, to show a new product. It was NOT a member that posted asking info about it. The reason (like it or not) that this site exists, is because of paying vendors. Your posts were not welcomed, and it seems the couple people like to work together to bash any Pedders post, and this needs to stop now. If a vendor posts about a new product, and you feel you don't like it, then stay out of the thread.

So what are you saying? Should paying vendors have moderator powers, should they be able to delete posts that they don't like?

HANDLING. This can be a widely opinionated area. Who’s car handles better, or which brand of car handles better. Some of this can come down to individual preferences and expectations. We’ve all seen the G- force charts that compare different vehicles. How do some cars have the same specs as another but handle completely different from each other? Ok, it’s important to understand that these specs are calculated on a skid pad, that only tests steady state cornering. The skid pad test tells us nothing about yaw response characteristics during transitional cornering. Yet this is the most important factor contributing to superior handling. We’ve seen cars with the same skid pad numbers do radically different through a slalom course, then maybe even swap places on very high speed curvy roads. This in part due to the yaw response time designed into the suspension.



Engineers that design passenger cars factor in ride comfort, longevity of components, tire wear, road surface sensitivity, costs, etc. when calibrating suspensions to be sold to the general public in order to satisfy the mass majority. Cars like the corvette Z06, Z51, WS6 Trans Am, SS Camaro, Mustang Cobra and Viper represent the most the manufacturer is willing to do for the enthusiast. If they can’t sell hundreds of thousands of a particular part over the life of a model run they simply aren’t interested. Their marketing plans rely on volume. At current technology levels , getting smooth , soft low speed ride comfort and superior yaw responses at high cornering forces cannot be accommodated in the same car. The truth is tuning the suspension to work well at high cornering speeds always trades off some low speed ride comfort. We must each decide how much low speed ride comfort should be sacrificed for added high speed cornering capability.



While it may seem easy to increase a vehicles cornering power, with say some larger sway bars, this may not net better high speed handling, which is created with the correct balance of both high cornering power and correct yaw response characteristics. As cornering speeds get higher, the suspension system must get stiffer in order to handle the increased energy levels. To produce a car with truly superior high speed handling, it can only be accomplished by the systematic modification of a wide range of suspension components. We need to treat the whole car as an interrelated system. Everything from the front and rear spring rates, stabilizer bar size’s and rate, hardness of the suspension bushings, shock absorber damping & rebound control, to the size and compound of the tires needs to be considered. A total system approach will net a car with an integrated, balanced feel due to all the parts working in harmony.



While drag racers are concerned with the vehicles attitude during acceleration and braking, we road race types are more concerned with cornering/ handling in addition to performing well while accelerating & braking, all the while maintaining a satisfactory ride quality. It’s all to easy to turn your daily driver into a stiff race car, uncomfortable, and un- fun for daily use, with the wrong spring choice for instance.



Some basic physics we need to examine is the concept of energy, in particular kinetic energy. This energy is present in all moving objects, and the amount in any particular moving object is determined by both the weight and velocity of that object. This relationship is expressed by a basic formula : Energy = ˝ weight x velocity squared (to the 2nd power). This tells us the amount of kinetic energy increases in direct proportion to added weight, but in geometric proportion with added velocity. The point to all this is if the weight doubles the kinetic energy doubles, but if the velocity doubles the energy will be 4 times greater! Think of the suspension components as devices to resist, store and control energy. In example a spring with a rate of 300 pounds per inch can store 300 pounds of energy for each inch of compression.



As suspension components are modified for higher cornering speeds, it should be noted that the working range becomes narrower. Thus a mildly prepped Trans Am may corner well at .880 g , and start to feel “edgy” at .910 g. A typical race prepped car may corner well at 1.3 g , but come unglued at 1.310 g. High speed cornering ability at the track can help win the race, but on the street could save your life!



Controlling body roll is a major key to good handling. As a vehicle corners it’s weight distribution is pitched to the outside of the turn. The central point about which the vehicle body rolls under cornering load is known as the roll center. On any given vehicle the amount of body roll is dependent on the leverage effect between the vehicle’s roll center and its center of gravity (CG) height. The higher the CG and the lower the roll center, the more body roll. Conversely, the higher the roll center and lower the CG , the less body roll. This is because not as much leverage is placed on the roll center by the CG. Because the tires tend to roll with the body, too much body roll results in a loss of tire contact patch.



Basically the body roll pulls the tires away from their ideal position - perpendicular to the pavement. The quick solution is to dial in lots of negative static camber ( lean the wheels in at the top) causing the contact patch to be close to flat during body roll. The problem here is it causes accelerated inside tire wear. A more correct approach is to generate negative camber gain under high cornering loads by raising the roll center, and or lowering the CG. Techniques used to achieve this camber gain on a double A- arm suspension include relocating the arms pivot points, shortening the upper arm length and /or installing a taller knuckle. It is possible to go to far also. Too high a roll center will cause excess tire scrub. That’s going backwards, the GM guys put a lot of effort into turning the ‘88 and up vette into a zero scrub design.


Over-steer and under-steer are caused by unequal body roll during cornering. If the rear of the vehicle slides out of a corner first, it is called over-steer. This usually means the rear tires are not carrying the same weight distribution as the front. If the front tires are carrying a smaller balance of the weight , and the front end tends to push or plow out of a turn then this is called under-steer. The more a tire loses cornering traction, the higher the “slip angle” it is said to have. Although we always shoot for neutral-steer (balanced) , if we have to go one way we will settle for a little over-steer any day. It is much more controllable, with throttle and counter steering than under-steer where your front end is unglued. A well set up car can be pushed into oversteer by more throttle, and back toward under-steer by backing off the throttle. You can “steer” a well balanced car by the throttle alone. The last condition you can experience on a balanced car just past the limit is a 4 wheel slide or 4 wheel drift. This is a favorable condition for an advanced driver capable of putting the car into a drifting condition as a means of putting the car where you want it , beyond what is possible under normal traction conditions. This requires the driver to really be in tune with his machine, and for the inexperienced person could have deadly results if executed at the wrong time and place.







SUBFRAME CONNECTORS: On unibody vehicles , the frame has 2 halves, with nothing but the sheet-metal floor pan to tie them together. The addition of connectors eliminates all the flex , stops cowl shake, gives the vehicle that solid feel, dramatically enhances cornering and launching, and helps prevent T-top leaks from starting. They speed up chassis reaction time.



COIL OVER SHOCK SYSTEM: On cars such as the C4 thru C6 vettes, although they have 4 wheel independent suspensions, they incorporate a single transverse mounted front and rear leaf spring. This set up has one draw back, when for instance in a high G curve, one of the tires hits a bump or surface irregularity, instead of absorbing it alone, leaving the opposite wheel out of the event, the spring transfers some of the energy to the opposite wheel, upsetting its traction as well. This is called “crosstalk” It can be quite unsettling when it occurs, and coil overs eliminate it, creating a true independent set up, leaving the other wheel planted during the event. This one of those things you don’t know what your missing till you’ve felt it.



STABILIZER BARS: Both hollow and solid versions are available, I tend to prefer the solid ones, although the tubular versions seem close & definitely keep the weight down. Most of the time going with a huge front bar is fine but it’s definitely possible to over do the rear causing oversteer, unless you have wider rear wheels and wider, softer compound tires.



POLY BUSHINGS: Besides stiffening things up, harder bushings can absorb more energy, with less deflection, helping wheels maintain their alignment settings under heavy load. They can help increase chassis reaction time, making yaw response time faster. Lets the suspension do what it was designed to, instead of a lot of energy being absorbed by soft bushings. For example the C4 vette really responds well to having all the rear bushings done in poly or even heim jointed ends, but in my oppinion , unless you are really hard core leave the front alone. Poly in the front is really stiff, and doesn’t seem to net the same level of improvement.



STRUT TOWER BRACE: On cars where this is applicable, this part adds support, helping to stabilize camber settings in hard cornering, by greatly reducing flex in the upper strut mounting points. Good bang for the buck.

I'm saying that Vendors posting about a new product should not have to have their thread 'crapped' in, and blatantly disrespected.

Now keep in mind, this vendor wasn't me, it was Mike from Torqued and I may have gotten a little over protective, but the fact is, If I had done this to another vendor, i would have gotten an infraction, but because it's Pedders it seems that it's open season.

thanks, i feel special now
:wink2:

Point is, this was a post started by a vendor, to show a new product. It was NOT a member that posted asking info about it. The reason (like it or not) that this site exists, is because of paying vendors. Your posts were not welcomed, and it seems the couple people like to work together to bash any Pedders post, and this needs to stop now. If a vendor posts about a new product, and you feel you don't like it, then stay out of the thread.

Seems you need to be set straight on a couple of things.

First Item - Long before you were here, we were here. So you have that wrong, the members are the reason the site exists. If we weren't here, you wouldn't be.

Second Item - To the extent that your offering is valuable, it will be welcome. If it is less than perfect, those imperfections will be identified, for the ultimate benefit of the members here.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you can't defend the quality of your products on their merits, then stop trying, or admit their shortcomings and move on.

1st, Actually, I was here before you were here.
2nd, Just because your opinion is that you don't like it, is just that, an opinion.
3rd, I love the heat, stop trying to make mountains out of mole hills.

So, after all the ****-slinging we still haven't determined if a MagnaCharger will fit under this. =\

How can someone determine if a Pedders product is gold, guilded, or crap without trying it out for themselves? What good for one person may not be good for another.

Personally, I'll try the COMPLETE Pedders suspension that is offered when i get my own g8 to bolt it to mainly because they are the only company to offer a complete solution and I like to keep everything as single branded as I can.

As for the company itself, The product reveiws I read FROM PEOPLE THAT OWN THE PRODUCTS are impressive and the customer service I can already tell is good, all the questions I've had have been answered without problem rather quickly, and the build quality seems to be good. I won't need my suspension rock solid as this will be a daily driver but Pedders has what I need to get where I want.

Pedders has helped me before I bought, and I'm sure will continue to help after I buy.

Things like that speak for a company louder than anyone's goofy half-ass retarded remarks can.

So, after all the ****-slinging we still haven't determined if a MagnaCharger will fit under this. =\

How can someone determine if a Pedders product is gold, guilded, or crap without trying it out for themselves? What good for one person may not be good for another.

Personally, I'll try the COMPLETE Pedders suspension that is offered when i get my own g8 to bolt it to mainly because they are the only company to offer a complete solution and I like to keep everything as single branded as I can.

As for the company itself, The product reveiws I read FROM PEOPLE THAT OWN THE PRODUCTS are impressive and the customer service I can already tell is good, all the questions I've had have been answered without problem rather quickly, and the build quality seems to be good. I won't need my suspension rock solid as this will be a daily driver but Pedders has what I need to get where I want.

Pedders has helped me before I bought, and I'm sure will continue to help after I buy.

Things like that speak for a company louder than anyone's goofy half-ass retarded remarks can.

A voice of reason. Thanks.

A voice of reason. Thanks.

You're very welcome.

Now, Will a MagnaCharger fit under this, or does anybody know?

Ooh boy...I think I lost track here…I don’t know who's on and who’s off the $**t list any more.
This is more of a street gangland warfare fight. We may have to call Elliott Ness or the untouchables back from retirement on this one. …Ok I better get ready just in case…Let’s see I got my knives, chains, brass knuckles, Oh, and my street sweeper! Ok I’m ready…

for what purpose, so i can have people that are 'experts' tell me all the things i'm wrong about, and what our engineers did wrong.

This thread was going just fine until 3 people with little to no respect felt the need to exercise their internet penis.

I think racerx was at the top of the $**t list but the Mr. Sandog superceded him. Then 68Rustang superceded him, Then the Zaphod B jumped to the top of the list.

Hey! That means racerx is off the $**t list?!
Seems he got superceded out of the $**t list altogether! LOL!

Must be hot there too for comments like that (110 here today). A bit harsh I would think, it's not like you have forced to buy one!

I think its hotter then 110* on this board

People can lay their "internet penises" on their keyboards for us all to see if they want to. They can throw their personal attacks around all they want. The manufacturer reps can claim anything they want. Basic dynamics tells us it will do nothing.

Well that would depend on or if...Is there a performance money back guarantee on this product?
In other words if there is no noticeable handling or whatever, Is there a money back guarantee plus labor, plus all the holes filled and painted?

Just a Thought!

Cheers!

You're very welcome.

Now, Will a MagnaCharger fit under this, or does anybody know?


don't know. lol

I'm sure we will have that answer in a couple days. I believe that one of our dealers has a Magnacharged G8, and should be receiving one of the bars soon.

don't know. lol

I'm sure we will have that answer in a couple days. I believe that one of our dealers has a Magnacharged G8, and should be receiving one of the bars soon.

Good to know, I'n interested in the STB myself, but I'm also interested in a MagnaCharger.

I appreciate you calling this out like it needs to be. I'm pretty much over how this company puts out half-assed products and then proceeds to say the way they do it is the best, when it is obvious to anyone with experience that this is pure BS.

An maximally effective strut tower brace is one piece, period. The only reasons to make one with moving/adjustable components would be:
1) Manufacturing variations (as you describe below), or;
2) Slapping pieces/components together from other products

Since there is no reason to assume manufacturing variations on this vehicle (it is an excellent design), I opt for the latter reason - I would bet money that this bar is part of a modular setup utilizing pieces of another, previously built bar already on their shelves.

It's getting tiring addressing the BS coming from these folks (e.g. a solid sway bar is superior to a hollow bar, when in fact it really is just way cheaper and much easier to manufacture), but it needs to be done so members of this board can make educated decisions.

QFT

For what it's worth, I don't feel like the suspension under my car is half assed. I paid good money for what I feel and believe is great product.
I didn't think your comments were out of line except the one I highlighted.

lol, looks like the worlds largest nut sack,

LMAO! I thought the same thing! Drive shafts are aluminum. Any car with out a frame or cage/chassis will benefit from a STB. Strut tower sag occurs in all cars. Thats why adjustable kits are available to pull the top of the spindle out to decrease negative camber/inside tire wear when the factory adjustments are maxed out or non adjustable. Think about it. Any uni body car brand new by 100k starts wearing tires on the inside in most cases. The vehicle has 4 new struts and mounts, all suspension components are well within spec, but tires are worn on inside, On the laser aligner it shows -1.5 - 2.5 degrees camber. Never been wrecked. The towers have tipped in towards each other due to fatigue. If even a basic strut tower brace is factory installed it rarely occurs and the manufacturer knew when designing sag would occur by 60K so they took the preventative measures to prolong the life. So yes this bar serves 2 purposes. 1. the steel plates reinforce the tops of the strut towers. 2. The structural integrity of the towers is prolonged. Since we cant touch it or experience it, this is what you do to become informed, not ignorant. No I did not look any of this up. This is what I do and some common sense goes a long way. Charlie

...but the fact is, If I had done this to another vendor, i would have gotten an infraction, but because it's Pedders it seems that it's open season.

Rob, I wouldn't say that, everyone is treated fairly, take a look at the Kooks/ARH/<insert header vendor here> stuff that goes on over on the other site, everyone still gets their fair share of the bashing. There is nothing infractable on this thread. The site rules mention nothing about you can only speak nicely about vendors and their products or you will be infracted.

At the end of the day its the community that makes this place what it is. Vendors and hobbyists alike.

There are still other sites out there for the G8, this isn't the only one right now and it would take about 20 minutes to spin up a new one. Both vendors and members need to be able to freely voice their opinions and reviews, without that the site becomes worthless and the members will go elsewhere. I've seen it one other very large sites and would hate to see this one go the same way.

Rob, I wouldn't say that, everyone is treated fairly, take a look at the Kooks/ARH/<insert header vendor here> stuff that goes on over on the other site, everyone still gets their fair share of the bashing. There is nothing infractable on this thread. The site rules mention nothing about you can only speak nicely about vendors and their products or you will be infracted.

At the end of the day its the community that makes this place what it is. Vendors and hobbyists alike.

There are still other sites out there for the G8, this isn't the only one right now and it would take about 20 minutes to spin up a new one. Both vendors and members need to be able to freely voice their opinions and reviews, without that the site becomes worthless and the members will go elsewhere. I've seen it one other very large sites and would hate to see this one go the same way.
I am seeing more and more posts on other sites due to this very issue. Opinions, no problem. Bashing, uneducated veiw points that discredit or do not allow a business to promote or market said products is not right. What if Pedders said your business sux and that statement led to your lay-off? Not so funny is it. I am all for freedom of speech and expressing yourself etc. Would it be intelligent to say Burger king sux and u never ate there? Because Fudd Ruckers costs more then everybody else do they suck? If you had a personal experience for either, then you should express your opinion. In this case we are talking about the FIRST BRACE MADE. The person that should be bashing, or stating his personal experience is the 1 with that brace.

Yeah, it would be much easier for you if a bunch of stupid people with big fat wallets opened them to send you their money because you said they should, wouldn't it?



You know Mr. Sandog, unlike you I have actually driven a G8 with pedders suspension. I take offense that you think only stupid people with fat wallets would buy their products. I am neither stupid nor have a fat wallet. It was difficult for me to afford my Track II. But I can tell this, it was worth the price. I sold some items that I valued alot and i would do it again in a heartbeat. I've driven some pretty impressive cars and motorcycles, on the street and on road tracks. I don't talk to hear myself talk or to pi$$ in somebody elses wheaties.

I'm pretty much over how this company puts out half-assed products and then proceeds to say the way they do it is the best, when it is obvious to anyone with experience that this is pure BS.


What is more BS than someone proclainming that "this company puts out half-assed products" when he has not tried their products but is willing to totally dismiss the opinions of those that have and report favorable results?

Have a good day, sir.
Ed

what the heck is Fudd Ruckers?

Topperage, i completely disagree.
If john doe and posted a thread about what is a good strut tower bar, and someone posts that the Pedders one isn't good, and calls it crap, then so be it. But when a Vendor, that pays to advertise on this site posts about a new product, and is then attacked about the part by certain members, and they start taking cheap shots and touting their expert opinions, that is NOT acceptable and you know it.

If George from Kooks had posted about a new header, and someone with out ever having first hand knowledge of the header, said it sucked, and was crap, and everything the company did was half assed, you would have done something.

BUT, that isn't the case, because your still grinding your ax against Pedders you feel that your going to allow things that should not be allowed.

ok guys I have tried to be as helpful as possible

to all the engineers on this board I salute you. without you guys we would never be able to accomplish what we have in motorsports. however I think some of your comments towards this being a non functional piece are a bit unfounded. suspension dynamics are different for every vehicle made. BASIC engineering principals(physics) tell us that everything should be looked at with infinite force applied. in a vehicle this is simply not true. force exerted on the strut tower compensated against by a strut tower bar is a little more complicated than just looking at a piece and saying it will not work. without your own testing you will never know all the variables in every vehicle.

here is my challenge. anyone who says it won't work(and can prove they are actually an engineer because I can say whatever I want on the internet too) buy the strut bar and perform your own field tests. and if you can prove with scientific results that this bar is doesn't do it's intended purpose I will contact Pete Basica and tell him to pull this part from production.

So what are you saying? Should paying vendors have moderator powers, should they be able to delete posts that they don't like?

on just about every other car forum i'm on.. each paying vendor has it's own subforum that they mod, so it gives them "power" to sell their products... this is needed here, along with a mod in the FS section...

you guys crack me up.....I posted about a NEW product.......it was not a for sale thread

I think he was saying it in general, not with this thread.

Hmm, I like Fudruckers (you can engineer your own burger!) and the analogy. Yep, it's even hotter today.

on just about every other car forum i'm on.. each paying vendor has it's own subforum that they mod, so it gives them "power" to sell their products... this is needed here, along with a mod in the FS section...

I come from the gun world and some firearms sites are like that also. That I can agree with.

Keep in mind, this isn't a vendors forum, this is part of the general site.

Besides, what does the type of MODS i have, or anybody else have for that matter have to do with anything??

You can't be serious in contemplating that because I don't have any mods on my car, I'm missing out on something ???

hahahahaha, come on be serious, 252 for a strut bar that requires me to drill, than a wheel alignment afterwards......and if i don't get it I'm missing out on the best ride of my life???!!! hahahahahahaha....It would be rather difficult to mount any brand of strut tower bar on a G8 as there are no mounting studs or mounting holes from the Holden factory.

On the aussies forums people are saying that the VE/G8 front end doesn't even need a Strut brace...That is exactly what they said about the VZ chassis from the Holden factory and on the forums -- until the Holden factory started installing them.

So what are you saying? Should paying vendors have moderator powers, should they be able to delete posts that they don't like?

As much as we like to think this site allows free speech, that would be a mistaken belief. Every forum gets funded by members, sponsors or some form of advertising. Bandwidth costs money. Hosting costs money. Some people, companies or organization pays the bill. Those people that pay the bill have called the tune for the piper since the pipe was invented.

Personally I love the controversy that surrounds Pedders on this forum. It makes forum life interesting. As a Manufacture that brings many of our Dealers to the G8 forum we constitute a good portion of the paying vendors on this site. The forum is run by Autoforums.com We pay fees on many of their other sites as well. If a post becomes truly offensive I would ask the forum administrators to remove it. It would be removed, not so much because I asked, but because it would have to be truly offensive or was some how a post that never should have slipped by a moderator. The end result is it would just be removed because a normal moderator would have removed it.

This is not written as any type of threat or indication that any of the posts in this thread reach a level that they should be deleted. While the opinions may be strong, they don't offend me, nor have they offended any of our Dealers. It is just a direct response to a reasonable question. Feel free to post away -- but keep it reasonable so the thread doesn't get locked by a moderator -- without any influence from us. In other words, it is just business as usual. Without the members, we wouldn't be here. We pay the bill so the forum members can share their passion for the G8 in an online community and speak freely.

As much as we like to think this site allows free speech, that would be a mistaken belief. Every forum gets funded by members, sponsors or some form of advertising. Bandwidth costs money. Hosting costs money. Some people, companies or organization pays the bill. Those people that pay the bill have called the tune for the piper since the pipe was invented.

Personally I love the controversy that surrounds Pedders on this forum. It makes forum life interesting. As a Manufacture that brings many of our Dealers to the G8 forum we constitute a good portion of the paying vendors on this site. The forum is run by Autoforums.com We pay fees on many of their other sites as well. If a post becomes truly offensive I would ask the forum administrators to remove it. It would be removed, not so much because I asked, but because it would have to be truly offensive or was some how a post that never should have slipped by a moderator. The end result is it would just be removed because a normal moderator would have removed it.

This is not written as any type of threat or indication that any of the posts in this thread reach a level that they should be deleted. While the opinions may be strong, they don't offend me, nor have they offended any of our Dealers. It is just a direct response to a reasonable question. Feel free to post away -- but keep it reasonable so the thread doesn't get locked by a moderator -- without any influence from us. In other words, it is just business as usual. Without the members, we wouldn't be here. We pay the bill so the forum members can share their passion for the G8 in an online community and speak freely.

That's fine, something offensive (of course that's a subjective term, what's offensive to you may not even be a blip on my radar) should be removed, in accordance with the rules of the site.

But paying vendor or not, my opinion is you shouldn't get to pick and choose what I can say,within reason.

Of course, in your own subforum, you get to play god.

kinda looks like the $100 strut tower brace that i bought for my civic 6 years ago...
That is about right for a smaller bar six years ago. A larger bar today would cost about $250.

The cost of fuel is driving the cost of all metals in conjunction with the cost of the materials used to make them. In a foundry / smelting operation the cost of fuel is now closing in on 60% of the finished cost. That is in comparison to under 40% just a short time ago. Then add in the increase in demand for the materials. The increase in the cost of metals is over 40% YTD. Our GTO bars were batched last year. They are considerably less than the cost of our new G8 bars. The reasons are pretty obvious to any one who pays any bills -- fuel for manufacture and shipping along with higher metal costs. Look at the financial news for any Tier 1 automotive supplier. You will see them going BK, swimming in red ink and or involved in litigation as they attempt to break contracts with OEMs because the of rising commodity prices. I don't like the price of our product at our cost to manufacture it. Our options are limited. We lower the quality and maintain retail prices -- well that ain't going to happen. So we choose to constantly become more efficient, more creative and do everything we possibly can to bring the highest quality products to market at the best possible retail price through the best Dealer Network in the industry.

If you want to buy brand-x be my guest. You will still be welcome at any Pedders event across the country. You may have to park in the lat row, but you would still be welcome. If you want the best product, backed by the best warranty in the aftermarket through the best Dealer Network in the aftermarket you will be joining many others in the PEDDERS NATION.

ok guys I have tried to be as helpful as possible

to all the engineers on this board I salute you. without you guys we would never be able to accomplish what we have in motorsports. however I think some of your comments towards this being a non functional piece are a bit unfounded. suspension dynamics are different for every vehicle made. BASIC engineering principals(physics) tell us that everything should be looked at with infinite force applied. in a vehicle this is simply not true. force exerted on the strut tower compensated against by a strut tower bar is a little more complicated than just looking at a piece and saying it will not work. without your own testing you will never know all the variables in every vehicle.

here is my challenge. anyone who says it won't work(and can prove they are actually an engineer because I can say whatever I want on the internet too) buy the strut bar and perform your own field tests. and if you can prove with scientific results that this bar is doesn't do it's intended purpose I will contact Pete Basica and tell him to pull this part from production.

As far as claims of improved performance stated or implied are concerned, the burden of proof should be on the vendor not the consumer…He has no need to buy…But a vendor NEEDS to SELL something.

The consumer has paid 3ok…Err…29+k for the product for an expected performance and so far it appears to deliver as promise and then some.

I believe the vehicle was thoroughly tested by the factory engineers and has been in production for a number of years in Oz and I see no problem that requires a retro fit improvement.
Moreover, since someone on this thread has compared it to a high class BMW I do not see this or a similar product installed OEM on them either…But I guess I could be mistaken.

As far as pulling it off the shelf I hope it doesn’t happen b\c it does look very pretty as a show. Only thing is if I was to do that I would not drill holes, as krazy glue would work just fine.

Cheers!

We're going to need the worlds largest popcorn ball for this one gentlemen...
http://www.noblepopcorn.com/photos/popcorn-ball-1.jpg
I love how the vendors treat their customers here.

topperage, this is the first time in years that I aggree with you!

mike
dms

As far as claims of improved performance stated or implied are concerned, the burden of proof should be on the vendor not the consumer…He has no need to buy…But a vendor NEEDS to SELL something.

The consumer has paid 3ok…Err…29+k for the product for an expected performance and so far it appears to deliver as promise and then some.

I believe the vehicle was thoroughly tested by the factory engineers and has been in production for a number of years in Oz and I see no problem that requires a retro fit improvement.
Moreover, since someone on this thread has compared it to a high class BMW I do not see this or a similar product installed OEM on them either…But I guess I could be mistaken.

As far as pulling it off the shelf I hope it doesn’t happen b\c it does look very pretty as a show. Only thing is if I was to do that I would not drill holes, as krazy glue would work just fine.

Cheers!

please refer to my previous post on page 6 I do believe it is the first post on that page


it goes into great depth as to why engineers do what the do on FACTORY cars

if you are happy with your car stock then great! I wish I were as lucky as you. I always am searching for improvements on the cars I buy. it is no doubt that the factory produced a great car right out of the box otherwise the hype for this vehicle would be just that.

but to think for two second that improvements cannot be made over stock is very naive.

I push my cars harder than probably 90% of the general public and I want products on the car that laugh at me and beg for more. as a CONSUMER I chose pedders. as a shop owner I would never want anything but the best for my customers so I choose pedders again. period.

That's fine, something offensive (of course that's a subjective term, what's offensive to you may not even be a blip on my radar) should be removed, in accordance with the rules of the site.

But paying vendor or not, my opinion is you shouldn't get to pick and choose what I can say,within reason.

Of course, in your own subforum, you get to play god.We agree until you get into the sub-forum section. I feel the same parameters would apply as in the general forum. Why would a mfg want to restrict discussions in an online community? Pedders has our own forum. http://forums.peddersusa.com/ What good would it be if we didn't allow opposing points of view? My feeling is that our forum membership doesn't grow faster because people feel as you do -- we would play God and delete everything we don't like. Would a post with a legitimate complaint be deleted in our forum -- absolutely not. Would a post that accused a Dealer of beating their dog be deleted -- probably for being gratuitously derogatory.

As a vendor, we also have rights. If a gratuitiously derogatory post regarding our company is made we have the right as a vendor have it removed just as the same comment regarding an individual would be removed. This is within the framework of the general forum rules and no different from any individual member. As you say -- within reason.

As far as claims of improved performance stated or implied are concerned, the burden of proof should be on the vendor not the consumer…He has no need to buy…But a vendor NEEDS to SELL something.

The consumer has paid 3ok…Err…29+k for the product for an expected performance and so far it appears to deliver as promise and then some.

I believe the vehicle was thoroughly tested by the factory engineers and has been in production for a number of years in Oz and I see no problem that requires a retro fit improvement.
Moreover, since someone on this thread has compared it to a high class BMW I do not see this or a similar product installed OEM on them either…But I guess I could be mistaken.

As far as pulling it off the shelf I hope it doesn’t happen b\c it does look very pretty as a show. Only thing is if I was to do that I would not drill holes, as krazy glue would work just fine.

Cheers!
In my family, we prefer to buy things rather than be sold things. That may be why Pedders as a company is so focused on getting people to ride in or drive Pedderised vehicles before a customer becomes a customer. In a perfect world no one would buy a single Pedders bit until they had been in a Pedderised vehicle -- the same make and model they own. We obviously market our goods and services online and at our events. Our marketing is pretty straight forward on this forum. Get in a G8 with Pedders bits. Get first hand experience on the road as either a driver or a passenger. If you like the experience you will buy our bits and services.

There are weight loss programs and male enhancements sold via all forms of media with some kind of documentation that they feel allows them to legally make the claims they make. The same is true for the 100 MPG fuel saving device. Frequently they end up in court over false marketing practices, but generally skate because of the disclaimers. Auto parts are not all that different nor are cars. They come with a disclaimer that say the manufacturer reserves the right to make product changes whenever they feel like it.

Pedders chooses a very different road. We invite prospective members of the Pedders Nation to get in a car in real world conditions and make a choice based on that experience. That is why we have such passionate owners. It is hard to hide flaws when the prospective buyer is in a Pedderised car. It either does what we say it will or they will walk away. It is a No Bull experience.

We agree until you get into the sub-forum section. I feel the same parameters would apply as in the general forum. Why would a mfg want to restrict discussions in an online community? Pedders has our own forum. http://forums.peddersusa.com/ What good would it be if we didn't allow opposing points of view? My feeling is that our forum membership doesn't grow faster because people feel as you do -- we would play God and delete everything we don't like. Would a post with a legitimate complaint be deleted in our forum -- absolutely not. Would a post that accused a Dealer of beating their dog be deleted -- probably for being gratuitously derogatory.

As a vendor, we also have rights. If a gratuitiously derogatory post regarding our company is made we have the right as a vendor have it removed just as the same comment regarding an individual would be removed. This is within the framework of the general forum rules and no different from any individual member. As you say -- within reason.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/GeorgeInNePa/G8/anim_beer.gif

but to think for two second that improvements cannot be made over stock is very naive.

.

Real performance improvement is in the eyes of the beholder. When it comes to automotive technology as you well must know, it’s all a compromise. You tweak this and you screw…Err sorry…Lose that.

It’s always been that way on account of the laws of physics. We just haven’t figured out how to have it all yet!

But some day I will have it all!

I feel it coming!

Cheers!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/GeorgeInNePa/G8/anim_beer.gifHow far are you from the GTOAAs in Saratoga Springs, NY next week?

Mapquest says 212 miles

here is my challenge. anyone who says it won't work(and can prove they are actually an engineer because I can say whatever I want on the internet too) buy the strut bar and perform your own field tests. and if you can prove with scientific results that this bar is doesn't do it's intended purpose I will contact Pete Basica and tell him to pull this part from production.

Don't you think the burden of proof should be on the one trying to sell the product? (Damn I just noticed that some beat me to that statement) Can you show me the results of a controled test where this strut bar was installed on a G8 where some sort of measureable improvement was recorded like a faster timed lap or increased cornering grip? How about any similar bar on any other car?

I am also one of those Mechanical Engineers (Formula SAE team captian and worked in the automotive industry)that can't prove it over the internet (do you want me to scan a copy of my degree). I am of the informed opinon that a 2pt strut tower brace does very little since amount of flex of the strut tower on todays cars more rigid chassis is insignificant.

Neil
'08 MGM G8 GT

Interesting tidbit- post #1 on this subject 3:50pm yesterday, 3:52pm today, post #99. Quite the busy subject. Always seems to be Pedder Products that gets these folks so agitated. But none of them seem to be owners of Pedder Products. Don't cry until you try or buy. I am happy with my Track II. I just don't understand all the fuss. Check the price on the BMR bar for the CTS-V. $260. What gives with that. For $30 dollars more you can have a "V" engraved. Maybe they could engrave "G8 GT" to make it worth the money for the critics.

STRUT TOWER BRACE: On cars where this is applicable, this part adds support, helping to stabilize camber settings in hard cornering, by greatly reducing flex in the upper strut mounting points. Good bang for the buck.

Mike,

Thanks for the excellent write-up.

But I do have a question. If I am in a hard right handed turn, aren't the upper strut mounting points being forced in the same direction?

I realize that the outside tire is under more load than the inside tire and therefore that strut is subject to more flexing, but is it necessary to tie the strut towers together versus simple reinforcement of the upper strut mounting points?

I'm not sure that I understand the forces involved here.

Thanks,

The strut tower on the outside of the turn will be under much more stress then the tower on the inside, thus will be more apt to flex. Placing a strut tower bar on the car will stiffen them up and not allow much flex.

Mike,

Nice copy and paste job :p

http://www.azautomasters.com/handling.htm

The strut tower on the outside of the turn will be under much more stress then the tower on the inside, thus will be more apt to flex. Placing a properly designed strut tower bar on the car will stiffen them up and may not allow much flex.

fixed it for you :)

See pic of Nolathane STB on first page. (http://www.nolathane.com.au/catalogue_bulletins/update%200802.pdf) Am I the only one who thinks this is the same part?

As with the GTO, a comparison of the Nolathane catalog vs. Pedders catalog will show a lot of similarities. Pedders used to list the adjustable G8 swaybars as "blade adjustable", same as Nolathane. They've changed the description now, but it is pretty obvious where they source many of their parts. Pete is going to come along soon and explain that yes, Pedders works with Nolathane, but Pedders parts are distinctly different even though they look identical, feature-for-feature, on the outside. When pressed for details of the differences he's going to say "we consider this proprietary information". Different platform, same speech.

eBay nolathane strut brace (http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLDEN-COMMODORE-ADJUSTABLE-STRUT-BRACE-VR-VS-NEW_W0QQitemZ270245499030QQihZ017QQcategoryZ42609Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

eBay nolathane strut brace (http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLDEN-COMMODORE-ADJUSTABLE-STRUT-BRACE-VR-VS-NEW_W0QQitemZ270245499030QQihZ017QQcategoryZ42609Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

Honestly, the price of that ebay listing isn't much different than what pedders sells them for here. By the time you factor in the cost of shipping the items over to the states.

As for the whole Nolathane / Pedders debate, here's an old thread on ls1gto about the topic from Pete.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1332613&postcount=46

Its one of my all time favorite locked threads on that board.

eBay nolathane strut brace (http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLDEN-COMMODORE-ADJUSTABLE-STRUT-BRACE-VR-VS-NEW_W0QQitemZ270245499030QQihZ017QQcategoryZ42609Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

About the same price too... except that one won't fit our cars. For the last generation, right?

just off the boat guys!!

strut tower brace!!:driving::driving:


the is gtxgp's car and is the first in the country to have this STB. not even Pete from pedders has this on his g8 yet!


special thanks to eric seaman for the help today



Wow! All this just for saying this is the 1st STB installed. IMO, I think we missed what mike@torquedautosports was getting at...being the first one...even before Pete had his. Whatever happened to bragging rights? (stepping off soap box)

About the same price too... except that one won't fit our cars. For the last generation, right?

I'm pretty sure thats a few generations old. The G8 is termed the VE platform while the GTO was the VZ. The VR and VS where the 90s vehicles until 98 when the VT-VZ vehicles came out.

You guy need to lay off. If you don't like it, go to the next post or wait for JC Whitney to come out with a cheap ass bar. Lets rise above the insults guys and keep this forum great.

Could I offer a suggestion?

I would recommend that paying vendors who want to introduce a product do so in threads within their vendor forum, with the understanding that these forums are reserved for such a purpose and not for others to discuss the perceived demerits of the products. I'd say it would be appropriate for a vendor to link to such threads from the "common area" forums.

I would also recommend that the "common area" forums be open to any reasonable discussion of any topic, including vendor products. I think the discussion in this thread has been reasonable, notwithstanding some tender egos here and there.

Finally, I would recommend that vendors not attempt to influence the dialog, moderation or administration of the boards, as that would surely reflect poorly on any that do so.

.............. I am of the informed opinon that a 2pt strut tower brace does very little since amount of flex of the strut tower on todays cars more rigid chassis is insignificant.

Drive my '02 Camaro SS with and without it's bar and you'll change your opinion.

I agree with Z.

I assume that is why we have the "Supporting Vendors" and "Sponsor New Products Showcase" sub forums.

If anybody cares, a simple (very simple) explanation of the theory behind a strut tower brace can be found in the following links.

Quite a few big assumptions are made in the authors calculations but in an effort to get this thread away from finger pointing and name calling:

1: The car is an e30 BMW M3
2: The author uses statics (sum of all forces = 0) for analysis. We all know a cornering automobile is a very dynamic thing.
3: The forces generated are very high, higher than most any car this side of a fully prepped track weapon will ever see.
4: The car, as designed, is not capable of handling the loads to which it is subjected.

I don't necessarily agree with everything but the basics are there.

Read both pages:

http://www.e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_theory.htm
http://www.e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_comp.htm

In regards to item 4. Some cars simply are not designed properly for their intended uses. I don't believe the VE is one of those cars, it is a very rigid chassis. A classic example of a car that deperately needs strut tower bracing is the first generation Ford Mustang. Over time the towers will collapse towards each other make it difficult to remove the headers from the engine, the towers will fatigue over time from the movement and actually develop cracks. I can post pics of my 1968 with my self designed bracing installed to prove I am not simply a STB hater.

Drive my '02 Camaro SS with and without it's bar and you'll change your opinion.

Yeah but you can't compare any Camaro (except the new unreleased one) to the G8's superior rigidity. Those old bodies were known to flex. Just MO.:)

I'm sure your Camaro LOVES braces to strengthen it.

68Rustang, Item #4 above is the key.

I completely agree about the merits of STBs. An STB (along with subframe connectors and a k-frame brace) completely transformed my 1989 Mustang GT convertible.

IMO, a G8 owner will not benefit from a STB if the suspension remains stock and the car is not driven hard. The chassis feels very good under normal driving conditions.

Firmer aftermarket suspension parts and more spirited driving will get more benefit from a STB. It's just one piece to getting the chassis tied together for higher dynamic loads.

68Rustang, Item #4 above is the key.

I completely agree about the merits of STBs. An STB (along with subframe connectors and a k-frame brace) completely transformed my 1989 Mustang GT convertible.

IMO, a G8 owner will not benefit from a STB if the suspension remains stock and the car is not driven hard. The chassis feels very good under normal driving conditions.

Firmer aftermarket suspension parts and more spirited driving will get more benefit from a STB. It's just one piece to getting the chassis tied together for higher dynamic loads.

Z,
Well put, in an earlier post in this thread I posted this and still think it is reasonable when talking about reaching the full potential of the fine G8 chassis:

A STB can make a noticable difference on car but it is not at the top of the list for suspension improvements. On a G8, other pieces like bushes, springs, struts, and sway bars probably come first but after these, the STB is a natural progression.
The stock G8 suffers, in order of serverity, from excessive rear sub-frame squirm, it is under sprung and under damped and it has too much lean for serious road work.
After these are corrected, the next weak link is strut tower flex under heavy lateral loads and this STB should eliminate it.


I probably should have reduce it, not eliminate it, but that only a matter of degree.

68Rustang, Item #4 above is the key.

Firmer aftermarket suspension parts and more spirited driving will get more benefit from a STB. It's just one piece to getting the chassis tied together for higher dynamic loads.

Exactly... some of us push our cars hard on a daily basis and can feel the difference on a daily basis... some of us are driving miss daisy and wouldn't know the difference with aftermarket suspension, let alone a STB. I for one am the later and have always felt a difference with a STB no matter what type of chassis.

Adam

GTXgp,
So, 156 posts later, how do you like it? Just kidding.
You the same GTXgp as on ClubGP? I was ducati650 there when I had my '04 Comp G.
I had 18" wheels/tires, Bilsteins/Eibachs/F-body brakes and f/r STBs on it. I swear it felt more confidence inspiring at high speeds than my stock G8 but not now.

I don't necessarily agree with everything but the basics are there.

Read both pages:

http://www.e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_theory.htm
http://www.e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_comp.htm


Entirely too basic... It gives you a ballpark number, but I think his numbers are off by a decent amount. He can't just treat then suspension from strut tower to street as a simple lever. I'd argue the forces are actually considerably less.

68Rustang, Item #4 above is the key.

I completely agree about the merits of STBs. An STB (along with subframe connectors and a k-frame brace) completely transformed my 1989 Mustang GT convertible.

IMO, a G8 owner will not benefit from a STB if the suspension remains stock and the car is not driven hard. The chassis feels very good under normal driving conditions.

Firmer aftermarket suspension parts and more spirited driving will get more benefit from a STB. It's just one piece to getting the chassis tied together for higher dynamic loads.

I'm still gonna call BS that any person ON THE STREET will be able to tell any difference with a STB on a G8. There are too many other areas in the suspension that can flex and move (including the strut mount itself).

Unless you're running a suspension (like the Pedder's Extreme setup) meant for the track, with R compound tires, and almost lifting one of the front tires through the turns, I don't believe those strut towers are going to move enough to make it worthwhile. Is this STB useless? Nope... But I think its probably one of the LAST mods one should make, as its useless beforehand.

GTXgp,
So, 156 posts later, how do you like it? Just kidding.
You the same GTXgp as on ClubGP? I was ducati650 there when I had my '04 Comp G.
I had 18" wheels/tires, Bilsteins/Eibachs/F-body brakes and f/r STBs on it. I swear it felt more confidence inspiring at high speeds than my stock G8 but not now.

Yes that's me. On the 3 GPs that I owned, I went through just about every suspension setup available. It seemed like I was never satisifed with the GP suspension compared to my other vehicles. Overall, I'd say a mod'd suspension GP is comperable to a stock G8.... but a mod'd G8..... watch out :driving:

We'll see how the stock G8 brakes last once I really start pushing the car harder.

I'm still gonna call BS that any person ON THE STREET will be able to tell any difference with a STB on a G8. There are too many other areas in the suspension that can flex and move (including the strut mount itself).
As others have said, it really depends on how hard you drive.

If you're consistently cornering so hard that you've got the suspension riding near the bump stops, you probably could tell the difference. Most of us (me included) wouldn't be able to tell one way or the other in daily driving.

If (when, hopefully :) ) I upgrade the struts and springs, I'll investigate a STB further. Until then there's no point - not for me, anyway.

Exactly... some of us push our cars hard on a daily basis and can feel the difference on a daily basis... some of us are driving miss daisy and wouldn't know the difference with aftermarket suspension, let alone a STB. I for one am the later and have always felt a difference with a STB no matter what type of chassis.

Adam

You meant former.

As others have said, it really depends on how hard you drive.

If you're consistently cornering so hard that you've got the suspension riding near the bump stops, you probably could tell the difference. Most of us (me included) wouldn't be able to tell one way or the other in daily driving.

I don't care how hard you drive around town, on country roads, whatever... The tires will give way first. Street tires won't handle that kind of lateral force.

If this were a Grand Prix, or a Honda Civic, I'd be agreeing with you. The strut towers are built for economy, not rigidity, plus they're being driven by the wrong wheels, which makes it even worse.

I equate this to people putting axle-back mufflers on a G8. Its good for a whole 1-2hp (which could just be variation of the dyno run), which is really equal to zero. Sounds better, but doesn't do anything for you. Now, you have a blower up front, headers, and motor work... yeah, should probably swap out those stock mufflers. Same situation here.

Its amazing what $300 out of your pocket will make you "feel".

I said it was very basic but the links at least attempt to lay out in simple terms an idea of how a STB might work. It was more productive than me calling somebody on the internet, I've never met, a big dumb meanie head :)

Something that I find interesting, and have been waiting to see if anybody would bring up, is the supposed bushing issue that may or may not be present on these cars. By that a I mean a problem with the upper strut bushing that allows it to move around and wear out/rip/tear/collapse/whatever. A situation that may exist by their own admission even with the Pedders HD upgraded bushings and supposedly all available bushings of this design. How is bolting a bar across the towers (that are isolated from the struts by said bushing and supposedly still able to squirm around) going to have any kind of measurable effect?

Drive my '02 Camaro SS with and without it's bar and you'll change your opinion.

Do you autocross or roadrace your Camaro and have you seen a measurable improvement in times with the strut brace installed?

And I don't think my opinon will change since I have my own open track '94 Camaro (http://www.g8board.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54331&postcount=46) that I use for open tracking and time trials. I also instruct at HPDE events. I have run the car with and without a strut tower brace (you can see it installed in the pics) and can say that I really can't tell a difference.

I said it was very basic but the links at least attempt to lay out in simple terms an idea of how a STB might work. It was more productive than me calling somebody on the internet, I've never met, a big dumb meanie head :)

Its much more fun just to call people names though.

Something that I find interesting, and have been waiting to see if anybody would bring up, is the supposed bushing issue that may or may not be present on these cars. If there is such an issue, by that a I mean a problem with the upper strut bushing that allows it to move around and wear out/rip/tear/collapse/whatever. A situation that may exist by their own admission with the Pedders HD upgraded bushings. How is bolting a bar across the towers (that are isolated from the struts by said bushing and supposedly still able to squirm around) going to have any kind of measurable effect?

Actually, I kinda brought it up on the prior page, speaking of the fact that nothing stops the strut mounts from moving within themselves... Big rubber bushing, what's keep it from moving around a ton? Chances are, they'll move inside those, before the strut towers start "moving".

BTW. The STB in my honda, actually attaches to the strut itself, not the strut towers. I took the STB out of the car, because it didn't make any difference at all (it was free).

I don't care how hard you drive around town, on country roads, whatever... The tires will give way first. Street tires won't handle that kind of lateral force.

If this were a Grand Prix, or a Honda Civic, I'd be agreeing with you. The strut towers are built for economy, not rigidity, plus they're being driven by the wrong wheels, which makes it even worse.

I equate this to people putting axle-back mufflers on a G8. Its good for a whole 1-2hp (which could just be variation of the dyno run), which is really equal to zero. Sounds better, but doesn't do anything for you. Now, you have a blower up front, headers, and motor work... yeah, should probably swap out those stock mufflers. Same situation here.

Its amazing what $300 out of your pocket will make you "feel".

I understand where you are going with this, but your analogy is hard to follow. Did most people buy axlebacks thinking that there are major horsepower gains?

h3llphyre, I missed it in your post, sorry.

Chances are? Hell they are designed that way:)

I took it as he was equating an STB as an all show no go type thing. Like with axle backs you get a better sound but no real additional power.

Do you autocross or roadrace your Camaro and have you seen a measurable improvement in times with the strut brace installed?

And I don't think my opinon will change since I have my own open track '94 Camaro (http://www.g8board.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54331&postcount=46) that I use for open tracking and time trials. I also instruct at HPDE events. I have run the car with and without a strut tower brace (you can see it installed in the pics) and can say that I really can't tell a difference.

At least on the Camaro, the notice on the street is very noticeable. No I don't autox, but it does get driven pretty hard around town, on/off ramps, twisty roads, etc.

At least on the Camaro, the notice on the street is very noticeable. No I don't autox, but it does get driven pretty hard around town, on/off ramps, twisty roads, etc.

My question then is how do you notice it, as in what way does the car feel better? In theory if the strut (well really shock in a Camaro) towers are flexing in a corner then you would be gaining some positive camber that would reduce your contact patch of the outside tire and reduce your grip. I just don't see you being able to tell that in spirited driving around town even if the towers were deflecting (which I still think they don't of any significance). Also since the 4th gen f-body is not a strut type set up and has an upper a-arm that is attached to the tower at a point lower than the top of the tower it would be less susceptible to camber change from deflection. I just think there is something else that you are feeling that make you think the handling has been improved? Reduced NVH over bumps?

I understand where you are going with this, but your analogy is hard to follow. Did most people buy axlebacks thinking that there are major horsepower gains?

Go to the thread with the dyno results for the ARH header system... Everyone was making statements about HP from stock mufflers.

The analogy ss more along the lines of... is it useless now? yes. is it useless later? not necessarily. once everything else in the suspension system is upgraded (super stiff), your strut towers may actually start to move. Just like, the stock mufflers aren't holding back HP when the rest of the system is mostly stock. When everything else in the system is build up, the stock mufflers will make a difference. get it now?

h3llphyre, I missed it in your post, sorry.

Stupid meanie head

I just think there is something else that you are feeling that make you think the handling has been improved?

Lighter wallet... makes a huge difference in handling.

Go to the thread with the dyno results for the ARH header system... Everyone was making statements about HP from stock mufflers.

The analogy ss more along the lines of... is it useless now? yes. is it useless later? not necessarily. once everything else in the suspension system is upgraded (super stiff), your strut towers may actually start to move. Just like, the stock mufflers aren't holding back HP when the rest of the system is mostly stock. When everything else in the system is build up, the stock mufflers will make a difference. get it now?

Yeah… I get it. I bought the axlebacks because I wanted my G8 to sound like my GTO. When I bought it, everyone I consulted with was also only concerned about the sound. That is why I questioned the analogy.

...... Reduced NVH over bumps?

Definitely reduced harmonics. The car (Camaro SS) feels WAY stiffer. That translates to better feel, which to me at least translates into better handling. Took the car thru my favorite twisty stretch after the install, then went thru again with the bar removed. A lot more tire squeal and a lot more steering wheel "wobble" without the bar. Granted this is on a 6 year old Camaro with a modified strut suspension. The G8 is a very solid feeling car out of the box, but I feel reasonably sure I'd still feel "something" with a bar on the car. Maybe not, but the only way I know to find out is to try one. Just not for over $250!

Sorry I had to leave but I lost some knives, chains, and my street sweeper got jammed. But I’ll bring us up to date on the casualties in a jiffy.
So far we have quite a few…But first a disclaimer “this thread may contain some violent or obscene dialog, therefore I viewer discretion is advised”

Hot!Dang! I’ve always wanted to say that! LOL!

Ok the casualty list is gruesome and as this is a gangland street fight it is up to U the viewer to discern the good guys from the bad guy….BTW…I’m always the good guy! LOL!

We have since last night lost the pedder’s gang, as well as racerx, and some others…I think he (racerx) was the first casualty. But don’t count anyone out yet as they may be reloading or just licking their wounds just as I was…Ok so here we go!

Mike,

Nice copy and paste job :p

http://www.azautomasters.com/handling.htm

fixed it for you :)

LOL! You gotta love the internet…All the dirty laundry comes out in a wash! LOL!

You guy need to lay off. If you don't like it, go to the next post or wait for JC Whitney to come out with a cheap ass bar. Lets rise above the insults guys and keep this forum great.

But they started it first MA’

Drive my '02 Camaro SS with and without it's bar and you'll change your opinion.

An ’02 camaro?...And I thought this gang land warfare had to do with a ’08 Pontiac G8?

Ok! That does it! From now on all’s fair on love and war! I wanna compare the prius to a Rolls!...I want to see those ST,,, Something on them also,,,Are they not good enough?

Yeah but you can't compare any Camaro (except the new unreleased one) to the G8's superior rigidity. Those old bodies were known to flex. Just MO.:)
I'm sure your Camaro LOVES braces to strengthen it.

Oops! He said it better! LOL!

Exactly... some of us push our cars hard on a daily basis and can feel the difference on a daily basis... some of us are driving miss daisy and wouldn't know the difference with aftermarket suspension, let alone a STB. I for one am the later and have always felt a difference with a STB no matter what type of chassis.

Adam

Hold on there partner…We’ve driven both versions of these babes at speeds well over 125mph (don’t ask how much over this is between us and big brother OnStar) without the infamous bar and it felt like 75mph!…Are you telling me I’m driving too slowly?

Well, JUST TELL me how fast I need to drive to benefit from this $$$ bar! Furthermore, I've taken steep curves rated at 40mph with the cruise control at 65mph without breaking a sweat, while the guy behind me on a Camry couldn’t even try to keep up until he got on a straight away.

I said it was very basic but the links at least attempt to lay out in simple terms an idea of how a STB might work. It was more productive than me calling somebody on the internet, I've never met, a big dumb meanie head :)

Something that I find interesting, and have been waiting to see if anybody would bring up, is the supposed bushing issue that may or may not be present on these cars. By that a I mean a problem with the upper strut bushing that allows it to move around and wear out/rip/tear/collapse/whatever. A situation that may exist by their own admission even with the Pedders HD upgraded bushings and supposedly all available bushings of this design. How is bolting a bar across the towers (that are isolated from the struts by said bushing and supposedly still able to squirm around) going to have any kind of measurable effect?

Now this I would like to see some VENDOR address with genuine improvement. Or is it not addressed because is still under warranty?
Well as for me, screw the warranty, Their fix is usually a cheap half A$$ solution that VERY few of us on this board are gonna settle for anyway. Assuming of course there is one, but i would buy it before i bought a bar that does nothing for me.

Vendors this is your chance to SHINE.

Even thou I think it’s going to be in the bearing design or load limit itself.

But that's jut me!

Lighter wallet... makes a huge difference in handling.

LOL! I would say he got taken to the cleaners and is still in denial.
No biggie, been there done that. You live and learn which is what we’re trying to discern with this tread.

Stay tune folks! The same channel…Err…Sorry, thread!

Cheers!

Hold on there partner…We’ve driven both versions of these babes at speeds well over 125mph (don’t ask how much over this is between us and big brother OnStar) without the infamous bar and it felt like 75mph!…Are you telling me I’m driving too slowly?

Well, JUST TELL me how fast I need to drive to benefit from this $$$ bar! Furthermore, I've taken steep curves rated at 40mph with the cruise control at 65mph without breaking a sweat, while the guy behind me on a Camry couldn’t even try to keep up until he got on a straight away.

Clearly you don't understand the purpose of this bar if you think that driving 120mph in a straight line is taking advantage of a STB.

I am not going to make assumptions about your "40mph curve" since I cannot see it. But... most 40mph curves I've encountered are something that any camry can take at 60mph with the proper driver. Why don't you pay a visit to your local AutoX club, Road Course, clover-leaf exit ramps, or any other basic chicane's (sp?), before AND after a STB on any car and tell me you don't feel a difference. Until then, just because you have 2 G8s, you have no qualifying experience to continue to post your useless information in this post.

Also, I'd encourage all of you to take some of the bushings off your "new" G8s and see just how much deflection and compression is being exerted on our suspension/chassis. I had the benefit of seeing some of my bushings compared to NEW when my car had only 800mi on it and you wouldn't believe the the difference. I believe comparison pics have been posted in other threads. So, while the G8 might be better than other cars in torsional rigidity, it is not flawless and always has room for improvement. Pedders and this STB work toward that end.

Clearly you don't understand the purpose of this bar if you think that driving 120mph in a straight line is taking advantage of a STB.

I am not going to make assumptions about your "40mph curve" since I cannot see it. But... most 40mph curves I've encountered are something that any camry can take at 60mph with the proper driver. Why don't you pay a visit to your local AutoX club, Road Course, clover-leaf exit ramps, or any other basic chicane's (sp?), before AND after a STB on any car and tell me you don't feel a difference. Until then, just because you have 2 G8s, you have no qualifying experience to continue to post your useless information in this post.

Also, I'd encourage all of you to take some of the bushings off your "new" G8s and see just how much deflection and compression is being exerted on our suspension/chassis. I had the benefit of seeing some of my bushings compared to NEW when my car had only 800mi on it and you wouldn't believe the the difference. I believe comparison pics have been posted in other threads. So, while the G8 might be better than other cars in torsional rigidity, it is not flawless and always has room for improvement. Pedders and this STB work toward that end.

I have a V6 Camry and I'll agree with that.

Guys,
I might be one of the top 5 most experienced G8 suspension guys in the entire country, maybe the world, I am not sure on that one. But I can tell you I have some real serious concerns, on the left shock tower. Why the left tower is an issue, I really cannot tell you. There is suppose to be built in caster bias in the chasis, but most of the Gs that I have checked the casters are equal side to side. Also whe you check/adjust cambers ont he G8, and look at where the adjuster is, especially when you work real hard on setting up the front ends to be equal, to get equality, the settings turn out not to be equal.

I am the one in Pedders that has pushed really hard to get a strut tower brace because of the irregularities that I am seeing. There is one G8 that we did a Track II kit on, that we did literally 2 alignments on. The second one was after about 5 miles of 60mph 90 degree turns left and right as fast as I could turn. We developed a noise in the left front. What changes is the strut bush position in the inner fender well. Something changed there, and I think it is the inner fender well. For me, this is the reason you should have a strut brace. A strut brace is for the aggressive driver guys.

Someone mentioned in a previous posts that Au vehicles do not need a strut brace. I can tell you this occured with the Monaro. The 2 big differences between the Monaro and the GTO, had to do with no strut tower brace, and no rear toe adjustment in Au. Same goes tru with the current ride in Au versus the G8.

The G8 is such a new ride, and we want to be cautious on what we do with it. Currently there are tons of noise complaints in the G8 front end. Tehre are 2 bulletins to date about it. But what Pontiac has not addressed yet is the contact I have seen of the strut mount bush upper washer to the body. To me, this is a really big deal, due to the design of the strut bush and the angle the strut bush will have due to the mounting angle of the strut mount.

So guys, if you do not want a strut tower, then do not get one. But if you are going to play hard, then I reallllllllllllllly suggest you get one. What will happen with the dealer when you are still under warranty and you are developing tire wear concerns?? They me say it is your driving habits and not the G8. So 4 tires later, plus an alignment, you are back to ground zero again

the decision is yours.

mike
dms

ROTFLOL

I need a cigarette.

The G8 is such a new ride, and we want to be cautious on what we do with it. Currently there are tons of noise complaints in the G8 front end. Tehre are 2 bulletins to date about it. But what Pontiac has not addressed yet is the contact I have seen of the strut mount bush upper washer to the body. To me, this is a really big deal, due to the design of the strut bush and the angle the strut bush will have due to the mounting angle of the strut mount.


First of all, I want to thank you for being the first of the vendors to actually post up ANY information. Bravo. I'm going to preface what comes next. I'm not discrediting what you're saying, I'm just asking questions to better understand. Not trying to start an argument.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're concerned more with the bushing on the upper strut mount. How is this STB going to help this issue, if it has no connection to it? I could understand if the STB connected strut to strut, but connecting the STB just to the towers, doesn't help one bit with a potentially weak bushing. It also won't help with the top mount possibly deforming, due to a weak bushing.

Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here...

First of all, I want to thank you for being the first of the vendors to actually post up ANY information. Bravo. I'm going to preface what comes next. I'm not discrediting what you're saying, I'm just asking questions to better understand. Not trying to start an argument.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're concerned more with the bushing on the upper strut mount. How is this STB going to help this issue, if it has no connection to it? I could understand if the STB connected strut to strut, but connecting the STB just to the towers, doesn't help one bit with a potentially weak bushing. It also won't help with the top mount possibly deforming, due to a weak bushing.

Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here...

Actualy, it is a great question. To start, I am very concerned with the long term issues with the strut bush. After seeing the strut bush move in the inner fender contact area, ad the aligment change, several possiblities can cause this:
1. I screwed up the assembly and alignment
2. Strut bent
3. Sheet metal moved

I have written an assembly manual on the TrackII G8, and this G8 was not my first G8 I have done. I used this G8 to document my assembly manual, and took photos of nearly every process. So I do not think I screwed up, everything was still tight, the strut did not bend. If the strut bends, there would be some other issues that would pop up that did not. So I am thinking the sheet metal moved.

This is not the first vehicle I have seen this on. In my college days, we built a custom made strut tower on an auto cross car for a buddy of mine. We tok the engine out for some upgrades ad put it back in without the strut brace. This strut brace was not made to be adjustable. We sent the brace out for chroming and it did not get back in time to be istalled with the new engine. Wanting to test out the engine, we took out the car for some serious play time. Several days later the strut came back, and it would not fit. The strut tower moved inward, and the mounting holes did not line up.

So this is the reason I think the G8 should have a strut tower brace. Hope I answered your question

mike
dms

Couldn't you add a number 4. to that list?

4: The strut bushing is rubber and deformed under load caused the change.

Couldn't you add a number 4. to that list?

4: The strut bushing is rubber and deformed under load caused the change.

Not to mention, if adjustments are made, that bushing can always move around, making it damn near impossible to get a correct setting. Maybe the true issue here is a weak strut mount bushing, that Pedders should make a new one for... I can definately see the value in a stiffer bushing. Maybe its a product that Pedders should look at, unless they already have and I'm clueless (good chance here).

Its quite possible this is the case, especially if the G8 has a steeper then normal strut angle (it does in the back, right?). This could cause more stress then another car may experience. Then again, maybe the bushing is weaker, so the strut towers themselves don't take the entirety of the force themselves. Stronger bushings (solid mount?) and a STB would make a difference I think...

Not to mention, if adjustments are made, that bushing can always move around, making it damn near impossible to get a correct setting. Maybe the true issue here is a weak strut mount bushing, that Pedders should make a new one for... I can definately see the value in a stiffer bushing. Maybe its a product that Pedders should look at, unless they already have and I'm clueless (good chance here).

Its quite possible this is the case, especially if the G8 has a steeper then normal strut angle (it does in the back, right?). This could cause more stress then another car may experience. Then again, maybe the bushing is weaker, so the strut towers themselves don't take the entirety of the force themselves. Stronger bushings (solid mount?) and a STB would make a difference I think...

Solid mount bushings will not work on the G8. There has to be significant flexibiltiy there. Even a poly bushing will not work on a G8 because of the type of movement a strut bush has. Now I know there are poly bushings out there. Not sure if there is one for the G8 specific or not. But in the case of a GTO, which is the same bushing, there are reasons Pedders does not make a poly bush for street applications.

mike
dms

More good info... thanks.

Still makes me wonder. If the bushings eat so much of the energy, whats the point of a STB.

Lonewolf, you can add protective body armor to your extensive list of thing to carry in your trunk! It saved my life! LOL!

Ok…I’ll get right to this since there’s turmoil else where in the markets and I got be part of that too. Oh boy! This looks like it’s going to be a busy day…I may have to call Rick (Wagoner) also…Ok but here we go:

Clearly you don't understand the purpose of this bar if you think that driving 120mph in a straight line is taking advantage of a STB.

I am not going to make assumptions about your "40mph curve" since I cannot see it. But... most 40mph curves I've encountered are something that any camry can take at 60mph with the proper driver. Why don't you pay a visit to your local AutoX club, Road Course, clover-leaf exit ramps, or any other basic chicane's (sp?), before AND after a STB on any car and tell me you don't feel a difference. Until then, just because you have 2 G8s, you have no qualifying experience to continue to post your useless information in this post.

Also, I'd encourage all of you to take some of the bushings off your "new" G8s and see just how much deflection and compression is being exerted on our suspension/chassis. I had the benefit of seeing some of my bushings compared to NEW when my car had only 800mi on it and you wouldn't believe the the difference. I believe comparison pics have been posted in other threads. So, while the G8 might be better than other cars in torsional rigidity, it is not flawless and always has room for improvement. Pedders and this STB work toward that end.

Did I miss something? Just exactly when did say I was doing 120 in a straight line?
Ladies and gentlemen of the thread jury ii submit exhibit A and I quote:

EC-Ryder “Hold on there partner…We’ve driven both versions of these babes at speeds well over 125mph (don’t ask how much over this is between us and big brother OnStar) without the infamous bar and it felt like 75mph!…Are you telling me I’m driving too slowly?” …End of quote.

If you are going to bushwhack me from behind in the middle of the night PLEASE do so accurately and not the way U drive! LOL!
The only reasons I was going that slow it’s because it was NOT A STRAIGHT LINE. GET iT? GET IT? Duh!

And since U issued not disclaimer of responsibility, U take that back NOW or I’m going to sue U for inflammatory statements, unless U apologize this INSTANCE!

Err...BTW...Ladies and gentlemen of the thread jury here’s mine...”The scenes you are about to read or hear are real, only the names and story have been tweak to protect the innocent”.

Signed:
EC-Ryder

Quote, “Until then, just because you have 2 G8s, you have no qualifying experience to continue to post your useless information in this post.

Well, well…Who’s you’re daddy now? Ladies and gentlemen of the thread jury I submit exhibit B: Quote: “But... most 40mph curves I've encountered are something that any camry can take at 60mph with the proper driver.”…End of quote.

The speed in question it’s 65mph with the cruise control on without breaking a sweat. But we’ll let 60 stand.

The fact that even a FWD Camry can take I steep curb at speed of 60mph raises the BAR …No pun intended, to prove the point how needles the BAR in question is for even miss Daisy!

Ladies and gentlemen I would like to call the following witness:
I have a V6 Camry and I'll agree with that.

I have proven were even miss daisy does not need the BAR in question by stating facts as witnessed above and the defendant has not submitted any evidence whatsoever or refuses or maybe incapable of answering the question.

And the question stands: At what speed can we see a benefit of the BAR in question?
Just because HE clams that HE can? I would call THAT a bunch of useless information….BTW early on he claims that his pedder components are tested but Mr. peddlers want US to spend valuable time and money to test it for him by issuing a challenge?

Wow.... some pretty harsh comments from people that clearly have never experienced the difference a STB can make on a performance car, NOR can tell the difference between a quality product and eBay garbage. Pedder's only sells quality products that have been tested and proven to be effective and functional... not just knock-off junk that is mostly for appearance. If that is all you are looking for, wait for eBay to offer their $50 bars...

For everyone else that knows what a quality STB is worth then THIS is your source. Thanks Pete and Pedders for coming out with this desperately needed product that really puts the finishing touch on a fantastic suspension setup! Oh, and thanks to Mike @ Torqued for all the long hours you've put in to get the car where it is today :driving:

Adam


here is my challenge. anyone who says it won't work(and can prove they are actually an engineer because I can say whatever I want on the internet too) buy the strut bar and perform your own field tests. and if you can prove with scientific results that this bar is doesn't do it's intended purpose I will contact Pete Basica and tell him to pull this part from production.

Go figure LOL!

Oh, and BTW just for your information, in regards of those useless pictures u showed, and which really made me ROTFL…Well let me enlighten U!.

Any suspension component such as spring’s and\or bushings is going to settle shortly after a load is applied by form of installation. I can take a perfectly good GM bushing and install it, then if you uninstall it two months later and it WILL look different because it’s settled.
We have done this many times and believe me there is nothing wrong with the bushings that were properly installed two months ago. This is the reason why you want to check your wheel alignment after approximately two weeks after installation of suspension components such as spring and bushing.

Trust me on this sonny, I DO KNOW. I learned it by managing one of the largest and most diverse fleet in the country and saw things you will never ever see in 10 of your life times…No not even peddler's.

NOW U can call that useless information if you like but you would be calling a lot of professional suspension designers and engineers with publishing useless information also. But they may also want a piece of you’re A$$...LOL!

Cheers

There is no L in Pedders

There is no L in Pedders

Fairly sure he knows that...

NOW U can call that useless information if you like but you would be calling a lot of professional suspension designers and engineers with publishing useless information also. But they may also want a piece of you’re A$$...LOL!

Gotta love the irony in that.

The VZ required a strut tower bar as can be determined by Holden / GM adding the bar over the course of production. One of the changes being made as the Chassis known as VE / ZETA matures into the Camaro as ZETA II is a structurally stronger front section. The VE / ZETA / Commodore / G8 is a very sound structure. There in minimal cowl shake in thses vehicles. They are lightyears ahead of the VZ chassis and a class leader. ZETA is the best production chassis outside of a vew brands that cost tens of thousands of dollars more. That did not stop advancement of the chassis development by GM for the Camaro. The Camaro will be ZETA II technology and a bump up from the G8. On all of the recent GM Racing developmnet vehicles I have seen they use -- pause for dramatic effect -- a STB.

On the older VZ there were a variety of STB made to replace the skinny little bars they shipped with from the factory. The factory bar worked just fine. It was a puny little thing that looked tacky, but it worked. I have been quoted on this an other forums many times for what I have written in the past. That is no suprise as I have a lot of posts floating around. That anyone takes the time to serach them out amazes and flatters me. Pick the brand of STB you thinks looks good or stay with the factory bar. The designs were a fashion statement. The need for a stab bar on a performance vehcile is a given or the OE MFGs would put them on. The need for an I-Beam STB is non-existant. Adding the Pedders STB to your G8 is a solid modification. It is light weight. It looks great. It functions as it should. If you like the look of brand-x or the price -- go for it.

When would you notice the difference of having a STB in your G8 is a good question. Under any type of trully aggressive manuever, autocross, road course, pot holes, railroad tracks and most any road in typically brutally rough Michigan, New York, major cities, North East.... Can I tell the difference in my car -- yes I can. Can you -- maybe, maybe not. It depends on what your level of awareness is when you drive and how you drive. Does your G8 need one so it won't fall apart -- nope. Do you need one -- if you drive like I do absolutely.

Gosh I am so great.

Trust me on this sonny....


:oldfogey::oldfogey::oldfogey:

:wink2: I was once so young I actually voted for Jimmy Carter!!! But I am olny this old compare to you :oldfogey:

oh, nevermind...

Can I tell the difference in my car -- yes I can.

The beginning of this thread stated that even you didn't have one installed? Damn, that bar is good if you can tell the difference without installing it.

LOL, just kidding :)

Ha!

Gotta love the irony in that.

I do not want to become involved in the frea so I will just say this. I now have a Pedders STB ordered. I will install it and give you my straight up opinion on it when I am done. I autocross my G8 and will soon be at Watkins Glen so I can give you both road and track input. I don't know if the bar is useless or a good product that actaully changes the shock tower deflection. We will see.

--Mike

But that’s just me! :wink2:


:oldfogey::oldfogey::oldfogey:

:wink2: I was once so young I actually voted for Jimmy Carter!!! But I am olny this old compare to you :oldfogey:


Question is does yours? If not just drive over to see big Bubba for some person to person STB (sex to butt) experience at your local jailhouse.

Have fun! :wink2:

Cheers!

I think you will find a photo of JP's G8 with their STB over on the Pedder's site forum.

The beginning of this thread stated that even you didn't have one installed? Damn, that bar is good if you can tell the difference without installing it.

LOL, just kidding :)That was at the beginning :slap:

:):):)
http://forums.peddersusa.com/imagehosting/84877e5a2346dd.jpg

http://forums.peddersusa.com/imagehosting/84877e5a312b42.jpg
In person you need :cool::cool::cool:

With all of this you guys are convincing me to go buy a BMW M3 rather than wait for GXP and dump money in to it till it works like an M3. At which time I'd have a Pontiac that runs just as well as a BMW M3 and costs the same. The logic escapes me....

With all of this you guys are convincing me to go buy a BMW M3 rather than wait for GXP and dump money in to it till it works like an M3. At which time I'd have a Pontiac that runs just as well as a BMW M3 and costs the same. The logic escapes me....

We can always vote on which on we think you'll choose.

I know which one has my vote! :judge:

But we got have proof of purchase! :drink:

Cheers!

Your about 15k off

With all of this you guys are convincing me to go buy a BMW M3 rather than wait for GXP and dump money in to it till it works like an M3. At which time I'd have a Pontiac that runs just as well as a BMW M3 and costs the same. The logic escapes me....

Base '08 G8GT = $29,995

Base '08 M3 = $53,800

:slap:

There's a big difference there. You could spend 10K on your G8 (not saying you have to) and make it better than an M3 and still be way ahead.

If I could afford an M3 or an M5 I would have one. I can't.

I can afford a G8 and I can afford to make it better.

I am happy. :)

Base '08 G8GT = $29,995

Base '08 M3 = $53,800

:slap:

There's a big difference there. You could spend 10K on your G8 (not saying you have to) and make it better than an M3 and still be way ahead.

If I could afford an M3 or an M5 I would have one. I can't.

I can afford a G8 and I can afford to make it better.

I am happy. :)

I agree!

With all of this you guys are convincing me to go buy a BMW M3 rather than wait for GXP and dump money in to it till it works like an M3. At which time I'd have a Pontiac that runs just as well as a BMW M3 and costs the same. The logic escapes me....
40K, 470 RWHP, coilover suspension, outperforms the BMW ME and the last BMW M5 that twice dared me on the ope road disappeared in my rear-view mirror... but I still have 13K in the bank over an M3 and 43K over an M5....

A BMW is a great car. I have owned three of their best over the years: 2002 Tii, 533i and a 745 gray market turbo. They build great cars at a premium price. I like the styling of the G8. I like the grunt of an American V8. I have a great looking car that stops people in their tracks and drive great. It looks only like my car and is unique. The cost at retail for all my mods including the car would be 13K less than an M3. If you want to pull out a grand or two, be my guess, but the M3 is a much smaller car. The real comparison is a M5 and that starts at 83K.

http://forums.peddersusa.com/imagehosting/8487a68384d9da.png

http://forums.peddersusa.com/imagehosting/84877e5a2346dd.jpg

Tell me again why I would want a BMW?

I'm going to Rocksand racing to get my bars installed once Frank gets them and we can set a date. Maybe the STB would be a good addition at the same time. Are more bars available now?

Ed i see What you mean....My head Hurts just reading This Stuff.....Frank

Ed i see What you mean....My head Hurts just reading This Stuff.....Frank

Frank,
Ain't that the truth!

I have a question for you grasshopper:

If Pedders shows a product and everyone who has actually tried it, loves it, but there are no Pedder-phobes to see it, is it still overpriced, non-functional, poorly designed, ill-fitting, not needed, a paint job on a Monroe and just so much marketing BS that only stupid people with fat wallets would want it?:slap:

Answer:
Ah, it is written, he who have experienced the joy of Peddersphilia cannot be swayed by the sharp tongue and dull wit of the non-tryer.:)

Base '08 G8GT = $29,995

Base '08 M3 = $53,800

:slap:

There's a big difference there. You could spend 10K on your G8 (not saying you have to) and make it better than an M3 and still be way ahead.

If I could afford an M3 or an M5 I would have one. I can't.

I can afford a G8 and I can afford to make it better.

I am happy. :)

I can afford one and for many reasons I choose the G8. I have a financial interest in GM from both stock and Pedders bits. At least I am happy with the Pedders bits portion of that commitment. That aside, would I rather have my GTO and a G8 or just one M5? The answer is I really don't want to sell my GTO. I am attached to it. The same is true of the G8. When you buy a M 3 or 5 you just drive them -- you generally don't make them your own with a lot of mods -- well some people that have a lot of money do just that, but I don't have that kind of money. Part of the attraction to the G8 is it is a state-of-the-art chassis with a strong performance that is reasonably priced. That leaves room for the toys... I like toys...

the joy Peddersphilia cannot be swayed Peddersphilia, Pedderise, Pedderised -- none are listed on Wiki yet :wink2:

Frank,
Ain't that the truth!

I have a question for you grasshopper:

If Pedders shows a product and everyone who has actually tried it, loves it, but there are no Pedder-phobes to see it, is it still overpriced, non-functional, poorly designed, ill-fitting, not needed, a paint job on a Monroe and just so much marketing BS that only stupid people with fat wallets would want it?:slap:

Answer:
Ah, it is written, he who have experienced the joy Peddersphilia cannot be swayed by the sharp tongue and dull wit of the non-tryer.:)

Ed u are a glutton for punishment! LOL

BEWARE OF HE WHO SPEAKS WITH A FORKED TONGUE

Just a thought!

It’s all good!

Cheers!

Frank,
Ain't that the truth!

I have a question for you grasshopper:

If Pedders shows a product and everyone who has actually tried it, loves it, but there are no Pedder-phobes to see it, is it still overpriced, non-functional, poorly designed, ill-fitting, not needed, a paint job on a Monroe and just so much marketing BS that only stupid people with fat wallets would want it?:slap:

Answer:
Ah, it is written, he who have experienced the joy of Peddersphilia cannot be swayed by the sharp tongue and dull wit of the non-tryer.:)
Here is a better question.... if a Pedder's STB falls in a forest and noone is around to hear it, is it still overpriced? :judge: LOL.

I'm enjoying mine and want to thank Pedder's again for making my car handle the way it should have from the factory!

Here is a better question.... if a Pedder's STB falls in a forest and noone is around to hear it, is it still overpriced? :judge: LOL.

I'm enjoying mine and want to thank Pedder's again for making my car handle the way it should have from the factory!

LOL. Good one.

Sure, you like it, but what do you know? You actually tried it so that greatly reduces the value of your misguided opinion.:wink2:

LOL. Good one.

Sure, you like it, but what do you know? You actually tried it so that greatly reduces the value of your misguided opinion.:wink2:

I think you would have more fun poking yourself with a stick Ed. LOL

Grasshopper: :confused: :drink:






Master: My little grasshopper…When a dog wags his tail not always is he happy. If the dog is happy he wags his tail to the right but if he is scared then he wags his tail to the left.

Be sure U know the difference else, some day my little grasshopper, the dog will turn on U and bite U in the A$$! :whine:

Enjoy!

IT'S ALL GOOD

Cheers!

He who go to bed with itchy butt, wake up with smelly fingers.

Lmao!

You guys are funny!LOL

mike
dms

You guys are funny!LOL

mike
dms

U Guys are ok…Any body that can take a licking and can keep on ticking with a sense of humor HAS GOT TO BE OK at least in my book! :pir_flag:

But I can’t take anything back I may have said that may have tarnished your ego though. :(

BTW…I like the “banned” and the Pedder’s evil guy changeover on Rob’s avatar too! LOL!

But will square off again...I'm sure...But it won't keep me from buying some of your great products.

It'll happen!

I feel it coming! LOL!

But that’s just me!

And it's all good!


Cheers!

well, you posted it so it must be true.

gotta love the internet.

A Paying vendor posts that he has a new product available, and a small group of haters feels they need to trash the post, this to me is unacceptable, but i don't run the site.


I agree.. This is worse than the RX8 forum.

A simple post on why do or do not like it is all that is required.

Arguing with othe rmembers is useless.

Your not going to convince anyone they are wrong on the internet.

U Guys are ok…Any body that can take a licking and can keep on ticking with a sense of humor HAS GOT TO BE OK at least in my book! :pir_flag:

But I can’t take anything back I may have said that may have tarnished your ego though. :(

BTW…I like the “banned” and the Pedder’s evil guy changeover on Rob’s avatar too! LOL!

But will square off again...I'm sure...But it won't keep me from buying some of your great products.

It'll happen!

I feel it coming! LOL!

But that’s just me!

And it's all good!


Cheers!

DMS didn't put that there, he really was banned.

Why?

Because he spoke out about the censorship of posts AND pm's on this board.

DMS didn't put that there, he really was banned.

Why?

Because he spoke out about the censorship of posts AND pm's on this board.

Well, I am back!!!

mike
dms

After looking at this thread, lets take the price out of the question. So lets look at the other comments, which from some, and the some do not even own a G8, but take clear pleasure on being a Pedders basher.

So one of the big questions and ignorant comments made by a non owner of a G8 is that the bar is not a triangular design. Well lets look at the GTO because there are some similiar relationships to them. There is not a single triangular strut bar the the GTO out there. If there is I really have not seen it, and besides Pete Basica, I have seen more GTOs than anyone else in the country. Also, I can tell you that GM feels on their Zeta performnace vehicles they are making for pure race applications, have a bar, but it is not multi-linked. So there is an alternative to your stupid comments about it. The fact that it is Pedders is why you make the STUPID comments.
The fact that it is not a one piece has nothing to do with quality or anything. What it does do is give guys the flexibility to make height adjustments in the case of a Maggie for example. This is just like the GTO, in basic design.

Having multiple components in the assembly allows you to put some preload into the system and keep it tighter.

Now to the guys who said that the body structure does not have a lot of variations, again, another ignorant response. Again, this guy does not even own a G8, and may have never driven one!!. So far, Pedders dealers are the only ones out there that have actually checked out the G8. There is a concern, and I have personally seen it on 2 G8s on irregularities on the left strut tower, and have recieved info, but not confirmed on irregulatiries on the right strut tower. So if you think the towers have no movememnt, then again, your ignorance is shining like the north star!

If you do not want to take our advise on the need for a strut tower, that is fine. But GM performance thinks there is a need for one when driven in an aggressive manner and based on changes in align specs that I have personally witnessed, I think it is important. So all of you need to make up your own mind. Learn to filter out the Pedders haters, some who love to bash us and do not even own a G8, and some that arrangements have been made for them to drive a Pedderized G8, but they have declined. So turn on the Bullsh#$%^t anti Pedders filters and make your own decisions


mike
dms

This thread has gone to sh....! Unfortunately it's fairly reminiscent of not most, but seemingly more and more of what I see on this Board.

For those of us that actually "Own" a G8, we know what we have. And for those of you that don't, well it obviously shows.

As for commenting on something that you haven't experienced 1st hand, as well as the hyper-criticism of the mis-spelled or grammatically incorrect......... Give me a break!

I'm here for the info and to have fun. Can we at least try and keep it REAL?

Some people on this thread have forgotten forum rule #287:

"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag the conversation down to their level, and then beat you with experience"

Pedders has both their fanboys and their foeboys. I try to be neither. There is good information to be gleaned from these threads if you can stand all the meaningless BS that goes along with it.

:driving:

What is going on here?...I go to the country club for a dip in the pool, some Margaritas and some good looking eye candy and all hell broke loose or something?

First he’s gone without notice…then he’s back without a warning?

And now he’s back at it again pushing the “show bar” as an actual working suspension component!?

I want to know were the ON-OFF button is so I can BAN HIM AT WILL! :slap:


Oh yeah, I’ll also need some extra buttons for his underling enforcers cause I know they’ll come after me with a vengeance…Now were is the order slip for those on-off buttons…Humm!

It’s all good!

Cheers!

Some people on this thread have forgotten forum rule #287:

"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag the conversation down to their level, and then beat you with experience"



To paraphrase Mark Twain( I think), "Better to let people think you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." With that, this thread has run its course. There are too many negative posts against Pedders (in violation of forum policy) to attempt to clean it up to any real degree. The thread will be re-started and because it is a vendor's own announcement, only valid questions of product will be entertained. This is neither an endorsement or vindication for anyone involved., Consider it a Mulligan. And continue here (http://www.g8board.com/forums/showpost.php?p=71875&postcount=1)

BTW, GM thought enough of W-body Buicks to provide a factory strut tower brace while leaving it off of GPs and Impalas. (or they were naturally in need of handling improvemments just because they were not Pontiacs) :slap: