dealership insist there is not an issue.. it shakes bad.. is there proof i can show them>?

A test drive with you driving?

dealer wasn't willing to work with me and my car with this issue, i have since added the pedders street 2 drop package and the issues have gone away

Most dealers have vibration sensors they can put in the vehicle. A dealer did that to my G6 because of vibration issues. Took 3 sets of tires road force balanced to correct it. At their cost!

After 2 visits to the dealer they finally agreed my car has a slight shake and pulls a hair to the right.

We just spent a week with the top Pedders Au personnel and the top Pedders dealers in Au. They are very knowledgeable on our G8. In fact, they are way beyond our previous knowledge.

Here are some items that Pedders has found to repair some of the annoying issues.

1. Drifts, and pulls. Assuming the align and tires are OK, Pedders Au has determined that some of the Zeta platform vehicles have a dynamic alignment problem with the rear. The cradles and bushings can move so much, there is a "dog tracking change, which can cause the front end to drift. The repair is to replace the non compliant bushings.

2. Knocking noise and excessive rear alignment changes. The rear upper forward pivot for the control arm can come loose, causing the upper control arm to move around excessively, and even make a knocking noise. Pedders has developed a repair kit out of necessity for this issue.


mike
dms

2008G8GT. Please check your private messages.

I had my car in this weekend for vibration in the wheel. the left front tire was improperly balanced from the factory - 400miles on the odometer.

was not tires or balance.. it was alignment. Ill get that handled this week with my new wheels i bought :-)

I may ask for an alignment also. I don't think the vibration is completely gone.

Mine needed an alignment also! ;)

My 09 had the 60 MPH plus vibration. I changed all four tires, on my dime, this week. Vibration is gone. Now it still drifts to the left and when you brake it is very noticable. Dealer says it is in alignment, I say BS. I will have it done at a professional suspension shop. Anyone else have the braking and drifting issues???
Thanks

My 09 had the 60 MPH plus vibration. I changed all four tires, on my dime, this week. Vibration is gone. Now it still drifts to the left and when you brake it is very noticable. Dealer says it is in alignment, I say BS. I will have it done at a professional suspension shop. Anyone else have the braking and drifting issues???
Thanks

Make sure you get a copy of the alignment specs, before and after. Could be useful down the road for you.

drifts have been fairly common in Au. the issue being is most dealers do not know how to make caster biases in the front. Even so, Pedders Au has done a lot of work for Holden dealers dealing with drifts. Some vehicles have a dynamic align problem due to a combination of excess looseness in the back end. The fix was to eliminate the rubber in the back end and install our urethane bushes. I made a detailed post about this.
mike
dms

Most dealers have vibration sensors they can put in the vehicle. A dealer did that to my G6 because of vibration issues. Took 3 sets of tires road force balanced to correct it. At their cost!


I've had my 08 GT back to the dealer seven times for this. They replaced all the tires with factory Goodyears, did the vibration sensor things, road force balancing, alignments, etc., but the problem was still there. On my last visit,the dealer replaced the tires with Bridgestone (Potenzas, I believe). The shaking has abated, but it still pulls to the left.

No wonder GM is going down the tubes.

I just got back from the dealer and there is a drive line vibration PIC out for 08-09 (this is PIC 4989.) This is basically a reindexing of the drive shaft. it should not manifest itself in the steering wheel but you can feel it in the seat or floor pan as a low frequency moan or boom. The dealer also performed a road force balance on the wheels and did an alignment. I haven't been able to cruise at 60 yet to see if my vibration is cured, but we will see.

Does the steering wheel self centre after turning a corner at low speed?

BTW, drift is not a common problem in AUS. Excess looseness? What is that exactly?

These cars are all still under warranty in AUS. Any issues are dealt with by Holden dealers using OE replacement parts if required.

The only customers that are going to Pedders are not those that are wanting to "fix" issues. They are those that beleive urathane bushes suit their driving requirements.

Also, the issue with the Rear Upper control arm pivot coming loose does not exist. Im assuming you mean the cross axis joint in the Upper control arm to subframe connection? It could only be loose if the bolt becomes loose or the joint pushes itself out. Both scenarios have NEVER happened.

Pedders in AUS do not work closely with Holden...... OE and aftermarket are completely separate. Holden have more than enough experienced engineers along with ZF (who supply the front and rear end) to sort out and correct their minor issues.

Does the steering wheel self centre after turning a corner at low speed?

BTW, drift is not a common problem in AUS. Excess looseness? What is that exactly? EXCESSIVELY SOFT RUBBER BUSHINGS IN THE REAR CAN CHANGE THE DYNAMIC ALIGNMENT AND AFFECT THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE FRONT TO THE REAR. MANY ZETA VEHICLES IN AU HAVE GONE TO PEDDERS TO GET THS FIXED

These cars are all still under warranty in AUS. Any issues are dealt with by Holden dealers using OE replacement parts if required. MANY HOLDEN DEALERS USE PEDDERS FOR THEIR ALIGNMENTS AND SUSPENSION WORK

The only customers that are going to Pedders are not those that are wanting to "fix" issues. They are those that beleive urathane bushes suit their driving requirements.

Also, the issue with the Rear Upper control arm pivot coming loose does not exist. Im assuming you mean the cross axis joint in the Upper control arm to subframe connection? It could only be loose if the bolt becomes loose or the joint pushes itself out. Both scenarios have NEVER happened.WE HAVE IN OUR POSSESSION AN INTERNAL DOCUMENT FROM HOLDEN THAT DOCUMENTS THIS. HOLDEN HAS HAD A BIG ISSUE WITH BOLTS COMING LOOSE. IT ONLY TOOK THEM NEARLY 2 YEARS TO FIGURE IT OUT. IT WAS NOT UNTIL THE G8 CAME OVER ABD 13000 G8S MADE OR SO BEFORE HOLDEN STARTED LOCKTITING ALL THE REAR BOLTS. IF STUFF WAS NOT COMING LOOSE, WHY ARE THE REAR BOLTS BEING LOCTITED?? WHY HAS HOLDEN CHANGED THE NUT TO THE UPPER PIVOT?? YOU ARE NOT AS INFORMED AS YOU THINK!!!!!

Pedders in AUS do not work closely with Holden...... OE and aftermarket are completely separate. Holden have more than enough experienced engineers along with ZF (who supply the front and rear end) to sort out and correct their minor issues.
YES, HOLDEN IS SO GOOD THAT THEY STILL USE A GROSSLY INFERIOR STRUT BUSHING THAT COLLAPSES AND TEARS, AND A STRUT THAT ALLOWS SO MUCH TRAVEL THAT IT IS TEARING THE BUMP STOPS. GM IN NORTH AMERICA HAS DECIDED NOT TO USE THIS BUSHING BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS INFERIOR AND NOT RELIABLE. THEY ARE CHANGING THE STRUT TRAVEL BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE IS TOO MUCH TRAVEL. THEY ARE , UBFORTUNATELY STILL GOIN GOT USE A SHORTENED VERSION OF THE MONROE MADE OIL BASES STRUT ONLY. PEDDERS AU HAS VERY SIMILIAR CONTACTS WITH HOLDEN ENGINEERS, JUST LIKE PEDDERS USA DOES WITH GM HERE IN THE STATES. WE ARE AN APPROVED VENDOR FOR GM RACING, AND THE NEW RACING CAMARO THAT THEY HAVE DESIGNED WILL BE RUNNING OUR BUSHINGS


MIKE
DMS

Seriously, you are waaaaay off track with your supposed information.
The loctite/ prevailing torque has NEVER changed. They has always been loctite on all bolts going into weld nuts, and prevailing torque nuts on those that do not.

The nut has not changed on the RUCA. Front lower control arm, yes. This was not becasue it was coming loose. This was to aid production.

Pedders in AUS wheel align SOME cars for the dealers. This is because the dealership is responsible to wheel align the cars before sending them to customers. This is not done at the assembly plant. Some dealership out source this work to Pedders. The development side of things is done completely independantly.

Please dont think that after 150k vehicles, holden missed issues that "experts" like Pedders picked up in under 1k....

And BTW, I am more informed than you think.....

No one is saying that your bushes are garbage etc etc.Just that your info on the goings on inside GM Aus and ZF are not 100% correct. You would not be expected to have the full story, you are a supplier in the aftermarket industry. As far removed from the OE as could possible be.

Anyone that enters this community and hides their occupation while claiming to be involved in the automotive industry will have limited credibility as they are unwilling to be truthful with the members of the community.

When we remove a bolt and there is no residue of thread locking compound it means exactly that -- the bolt had no thread locking compound. We report to the community exactly what we find. We invite forum members to observe in our shops so they see first hand exactly what we see. There is no mystery involved. It is what it is.

The rear bolt on the passenger side or the front sub-frame on my personal G8 was not properly tightened leaving a full 3mm of thread exposed by the bolt head. In the rear on the upper control arm saddles the outer driver's side and inner passenger side bolts were galled during the original vehicle assembly at Holden. As a suspension company that upgrades and repairs vehicles we see these types of faults in all brands of vehicles. When you see them occasionally they are installation errors. When you see them consistently there are issues with the assembly process or the design and manufacture of the component.

It is interesting that the design of the VE and VZ strut mounts have been changed for the ZETA II based Camaro -- based on application requirements and function in the field. Part of the issue has to do with NVH levels and the dual density molding for the VE / VZ mounts coming out of ZF. Part of this has to do with the application requirements for the Camaro. Part of it is directly related to the conceptual design of the mount and the need for adequate articulation at the strut mount. Changes are being made because of the history of the mounts. GM continues to refine and improve the ZETA chassis. That the Camaro will be running on ZETA II with improved struts mounts reflects favorably on GM and their commitment to continuous product improvement.

Ok. This is getting beyond a joke.
We all know there are some slight differences between Camaro and the current Zeta.
Both designed by the same people.... Dont play it out as if the Camaro design was created in the US and all the issues fixed etc etc. Its a different car, different market.

Last point on the bolts. Im sick of going over it. If there is no loctite on the fastener, then there is a torque prevailing nut on the other end.
Or, give me exactly which bolt it is and i will produce a picture of the original production intent sample (produced over 2.5 years ago and kept in storage) showing what it is. Loctite has not been added anywhere since start of production.

How many G8's are on the roads in the states? 20k-20k? There are 150k over here. They are the same rear end, and there are not these fastener issues you speak of. Fastener galling, cross threading etc is extrememlly easy to pick up in the process and control. And it occasionally occurs and is picked up in the process and corrected. If this was an issue in the field, it would be a major issue and rectified at the supplier ASAP. (Holden do not assemble the front or rear ends)

I just got back from the dealer and there is a drive line vibration PIC out for 08-09 (this is PIC 4989.) This is basically a reindexing of the drive shaft. it should not manifest itself in the steering wheel but you can feel it in the seat or floor pan as a low frequency moan or boom. The dealer also performed a road force balance on the wheels and did an alignment. I haven't been able to cruise at 60 yet to see if my vibration is cured, but we will see.

Thank you for this info. This is exactly what I am experiencing in my car. Dealer said it was AFM even though I specifically said it's not and told him I verified through the engineering mode. Can't say it's terrifically annoying but it's there. I get a low frequency, rythmic moan. I suspected all along it was something related to a slightly out of balance driveshaft . .. sounds a lot like a mustang I drove that had an out of balance driveshaft.

Do you have any additional details of PIC 4989?

actually the dealer printed the actual PIC for me last week... I just got my G8 back from the dealer tonight (see my other thread on that) but this was not a cure for my problem and we will leave it at that.


I may be able to scan the doc if the wife hasn't thrown it away. but essentially the dealer will loosen the mounts and let the drive shaft "settle" and retighten the mounts. (i over simplified of course)

The only difference between the ZetaII which will be on the Camaro, is a larger front radius rod bushing, shorter struts, and matching coils, and different front strut mounts. That is it.Ok. This is getting beyond a joke.
We all know there are some slight differences between Camaro and the current Zeta.
Both designed by the same people.... Dont play it out as if the Camaro design was created in the US and all the issues fixed etc etc. Its a different car, different market. Per the engineers in Detroit, they were the ones that made the design changes for the Camaro.

Last point on the bolts. Im sick of going over it. If there is no loctite on the fastener, then there is a torque prevailing nut on the other end.
Or, give me exactly which bolt it is and i will produce a picture of the original production intent sample (produced over 2.5 years ago and kept in storage) showing what it is. Loctite has not been added anywhere since start of production.
The first 3 G8s that I did were all in the first 888 cars. There was absolutely no lock tite on any rear bolt. I did a G8 that was approx 13,000-13500 or so, and the left side had lock tite, but the right side did not.
How many G8's are on the roads in the states? 20k-20k? There are 150k over here. They are the same rear end, and there are not these fastener issues you speak of.We have found 1 G8 in the Los Angeles area that had the right front upper rear bushing bracket loose. We have fixed a rattle noise on the front of a G8 that was a loose left lower control arm bolt/nut. We have found a G8 where all 4 upper rear control arm bushing bracket bolts were cross threaded. there were loose bolts I believe in Pete's G8 when they did the dissassembly. So I can tell you, the Holden processes are not as effiicent as you are indicated. Also, with 150K Zeta vehicles on the road, why are there issues with front sway bar bushings popping out, and upper strut bushings making noise (Bulletin on both) Fastener galling, cross threading etc is extrememlly easy to pick up in the process and control. And it occasionally occurs and is picked up in the process and corrected. If this was an issue in the field, it would be a major issue and rectified at the supplier ASAP. (Holden do not assemble the front or rear ends). So with soo many variations in bolt issues, it really does not appear to me that Holded fixed things ASAP.

I think the Zeta platform is a fantastic platform. But it is dumied down so badly and so much paranoia about noises, they compromise handling. A fully pedderized G8 will blow the doors off of a M5 BMW.

My paranoia about the front strut bushings has to do with the obscene amount of problems with the GTO. With the GTO, they start off being collapsed, due to the shipping problems. Once they are collapsed, then they tear, and the strut tower migrates to the engine compartment and destroying tires. I have seen way too many strut bushings where the center ferrule is totally ripped from the bushing itself. Now Holden kinked the strut bushing 10 degrees or so in hopes of getting better life. Time will tell. So far I have only seen 1 bushing starting to tear at 1800 miles, which was causing the washer to contact the inner fender. Picture is shown.

Holden and GM abandoned GTO owners here. I have over 500 Pedders systems on GTOs under my belt, and have probably inspected probably 3 to 4 times more than that. I can tell you not all GM people in the USA are happy with the body role and high ground clearance the G8 has.

Now for the record, my next new vehicle with be your UTE that will be sold here as a G8ST. I can change the suspension to fix the things that Holden feels are acceptable but to me are not.

mike
dms

It is good you are buying a ute! Fantastic car that we all hope sells very well.

You are correct in the "paranoid about noise issues" statement. The car is built to be comparable to a higher end large sedan.
NVH is just as important as performance. We are talking about a big heavy car here. It needs to be comfy and quiet.

GM design for RWD programmes is done out of Melbourne in AUS. The first Camaro's were built here also.....US engineers have assisted. (I can name the actual guys if you want?)

A batch of strut bearings caused an issue, true. This can be picked up by a creak noise, or non-self centering steering wheel.

The fastener issue we are never going to agree on, so I will stop taking up forum space on it.

Mike,

You forgot to mention the other ZETA II revisions;

1. More linear radius rod arm
2. Larger ball joints
3. Larger shaft on the tie rod ends
4. Revised damping rates
5. Revised spring rates
6. More robust front clip

The TEAM that designed ZETA was a Global TEAM. That is why GM refers to it as the GRWD TEAM. John Sawruk was the Pontiac historian until his death just a short time ago. John was also charged with passing on the values of the original GTO as the engineering group from GM NA and Holden that did the GTO had little experience in that Pontiac era. John was the "Keeper of the Flame" for the GTO project. He did an excellent job right down to the Ram Air that increases engine output 5 HP over 60 miles an hour. The time he spent with the people from AU was well spent. There are similarities between the car culture at Holden and the car culture that existed in Pontiac Engineering. The entire TEAM embraced the philosophy and Pontiac brand values.

The ZETA platform in both Commodore and G8 versions reflects the values of both groups with an emphasis on Pontiac Performance. Many of those that worked with John on the GTO also worked on the VE. The blend of cultures is obvious in the VE Commodore / G8.

The G8 should have been named Bonneville. It is a Bonneville. A large sedan with state of the art technology, distinct styling and Pontiac Performance. It would have been a natural to run the ZETA Bonneville at the flats to 200 MPH and then release it to the showroom floor. Just as natural as it is for Holden to put an SS or HSV tag on it. The ZETA chassis belongs to GM. It isn't a Pontiac, Holden or Chevrolet. It is GM's Global Rear Wheel Drive platform. The Commodore belongs to Holden as does the G8 to Pontiac.

actually the dealer printed the actual PIC for me last week... I just got my G8 back from the dealer tonight (see my other thread on that) but this was not a cure for my problem and we will leave it at that.


I may be able to scan the doc if the wife hasn't thrown it away. but essentially the dealer will loosen the mounts and let the drive shaft "settle" and retighten the mounts. (i over simplified of course)
Please let us know the result.

wilco.

Thank you for this info. This is exactly what I am experiencing in my car. Dealer said it was AFM even though I specifically said it's not and told him I verified through the engineering mode. Can't say it's terrifically annoying but it's there. I get a low frequency, rythmic moan. I suspected all along it was something related to a slightly out of balance driveshaft . .. sounds a lot like a mustang I drove that had an out of balance driveshaft.

Do you have any additional details of PIC 4989?

http://forums.peddersusa.com/imagehosting/74934e2215f8fb.jpg

Be aware, however, that this PIC I believe did not fix his concern

http://forums.peddersusa.com/imagehosting/74934e2215f8fb.jpg

Be aware, however, that this PIC I believe did not fix his concern

am i correct in presuming that if a car had this issue...it would occur whether or not the motor is in 4 cylinder mode...correct? reason i ask is because of have some vibration/noise at those speeds that is only apparent when the car goes into 4 banger mode while cruising on the freeway...

am i correct in presuming that if a car had this issue...it would occur whether or not the motor is in 4 cylinder mode...correct? reason i ask is because of have some vibration/noise at those speeds that is only apparent when the car goes into 4 banger mode while cruising on the freeway...

I have been involved in the past with many driveline issues from phasing boom to vibrations. I have also been involved with variable displacement cars since 1981. Most of these issues are really speed related. However, harmonics can be changed by the addition of loads. So I can speculate only that the noise would be there all the time, but could become louder in 4 cylinder mode. But the variable displacement functions work really well; a far cry from the 8/6/4 motors from Cadillac

I think this issue will be very limited, since it is really GMs new variable displacement units, it without the display on the dash, you really would not even know it is happening.

mke
dms

am i correct in presuming that if a car had this issue...it would occur whether or not the motor is in 4 cylinder mode...correct? reason i ask is because of have some vibration/noise at those speeds that is only apparent when the car goes into 4 banger mode while cruising on the freeway...

My car actually does not make the noise until you get into 70-75 mph. It has nothing to do with AFM for me - in fact, it's not even activated when I hear the noise.

The PIC is interesting in that it is saying that it occurs in the 60 mph range. . . this could definitely be AFM.

There is a little vibration/low rumble when the car is in v4 mode . . .it is very minimal and I would say it's completely normal.

IMO, The V4 noise and vibration is most noticeable when you are lugging and traveling at lower speeds (like 30-45 mph.) Again, normal.

Be aware, however, that this PIC I believe did not fix his concern

Thanks for posting the PIC.

My car actually does not make the noise until you get into 70-75 mph. It has nothing to do with AFM for me - in fact, it's not even activated when I hear the noise.

The PIC is interesting in that it is saying that it occurs in the 60 mph range. . . this could definitely be AFM.

There is a little vibration/low rumble when the car is in v4 mode . . .it is very minimal and I would say it's completely normal.

IMO, The V4 noise and vibration is most noticeable when you are lugging and traveling at lower speeds (like 30-45 mph.) Again, normal.

If I was to speculate, I would think your 4cyl mode noise is exhaust system induced and not the chassis at all

mike
dms

If I was to speculate, I would think your 4cyl mode noise is exhaust system induced and not the chassis at all

mike
dms


I agree - I wasn't very clear. We're talking about two separate "noises/vibrations":

1.) V4/AFM vibration (agree this is simply exhaust resonounce and not chassis induced)

2.) driveline rythymic low pitch groan/moan - I believe this is driveline induced / coming from a slightly out of balance driveshaft or something along this area.

Just wanted to clarify . . .thanks again for posting. Someone should put that PIC as a sticky note!

Thanks for posting the PIC.ditto

My vibration is not AFM. I don't like the vibration feel of the AFM mind you, but my vibration is not in the drive line in my opinion.

My car actually does not make the noise until you get into 70-75 mph. It has nothing to do with AFM for me - in fact, it's not even activated when I hear the noise.

The PIC is interesting in that it is saying that it occurs in the 60 mph range. . . this could definitely be AFM.

There is a little vibration/low rumble when the car is in v4 mode . . .it is very minimal and I would say it's completely normal.

IMO, The V4 noise and vibration is most noticeable when you are lugging and traveling at lower speeds (like 30-45 mph.) Again, normal.

as i suspected, what i'm hearing and slightly feeling is likely normal, so i'll just forget about it. now back to worrying about that front suspension rattle...! uggh!

Request assistance. I have an 09 G8GT and after 1700 miles and 4 new tires, I still have drift to the right and left. I have had 3 alignments, one by the dealer and two by tire companies. The dealer told me I have to live with the drift and the constant movement of the steering wheel. It is like watching a TV show where someone is driving a prop car and moving the wheel left and right all the time. After three trips he ordered a part for the suspension, unknown, but it had to be ordered. He advised me the grooves in the street surfact cause the car to drift from side to side. I also have to put air in the tires, all of them, at least once per week. I had the TPS checked and they do not leak. Dealer thinks the " wheel casting is flawed"? Any suggestions other than trading car in? Thanks and please no insulting answers.

Request assistance. I have an 09 G8GT and after 1700 miles and 4 new tires, I still have drift to the right and left. I have had 3 alignments, one by the dealer and two by tire companies. The dealer told me I have to live with the drift and the constant movement of the steering wheel. It is like watching a TV show where someone is driving a prop car and moving the wheel left and right all the time. After three trips he ordered a part for the suspension, unknown, but it had to be ordered. He advised me the grooves in the street surfact cause the car to drift from side to side. I also have to put air in the tires, all of them, at least once per week. I had the TPS checked and they do not leak. Dealer thinks the " wheel casting is flawed"? Any suggestions other than trading car in? Thanks and please no insulting answers.


From the sound of it, I'm guessing you have the 19" tires. They do tram a fair amount on roads with any sort of groove . . .if it's not extreme, I'd say it's normal. However, if it's pretty extreme perhaps you do have a suspension problem (like the bushing one talked about in this thread.)

Have you ever driven a car with such large, low profile tires/wheels before? If not, might be that you're just not used to it.

Request assistance. I have an 09 G8GT and after 1700 miles and 4 new tires, I still have drift to the right and left. I have had 3 alignments, one by the dealer and two by tire companies. The dealer told me I have to live with the drift and the constant movement of the steering wheel. It is like watching a TV show where someone is driving a prop car and moving the wheel left and right all the time. After three trips he ordered a part for the suspension, unknown, but it had to be ordered. He advised me the grooves in the street surfact cause the car to drift from side to side. I also have to put air in the tires, all of them, at least once per week. I had the TPS checked and they do not leak. Dealer thinks the " wheel casting is flawed"? Any suggestions other than trading car in? Thanks and please no insulting answers.

Can you further explain your symptoms? Drifts left and right? Can you copy your align specs so we can see them? What tires are you running? It does sound like the tires are following the road. What are the roads like that make the vehicle go left, then right? Did the dealer try different tires?
mike
dms

Request assistance. I have an 09 G8GT and after 1700 miles and 4 new tires, I still have drift to the right and left. I have had 3 alignments, one by the dealer and two by tire companies. The dealer told me I have to live with the drift and the constant movement of the steering wheel. It is like watching a TV show where someone is driving a prop car and moving the wheel left and right all the time. After three trips he ordered a part for the suspension, unknown, but it had to be ordered. He advised me the grooves in the street surface cause the car to drift from side to side. I also have to put air in the tires, all of them, at least once per week. I had the TPS checked and they do not leak. Dealer thinks the " wheel casting is flawed"? Any suggestions other than trading car in? Thanks and please no insulting answers.
#1 do NOT trade your G8. It is an absolutely excellent automobile.

#2 Listen to Mike. Get your alignment specifications posted here along with tire pressures and warranty work summary. This is a good time for a complete data dump. The more we get the better.

#3 You mentioned it still drifts with new tires. Did they replace all four tires?