There seems to be a lot of bad/uninformed information on the tuning of these vehicles.

I thought I would give my two cents on what I know about tuning in general.

I learned how engines were calibrated about 15 years ago when I worked at Katech. I worked on the engine dynamometers so I was around professional engine calibrators all day. In those days we were tuning Busch series and IRL engines. This is where I picked up the basics. The basics do not change from a carbureted engine to a fuel injected engine.

In the last 10 years I have calibrated just under 1000 vehicles on my chassis dyno, almost all of them LSX motors.

Here is the bottom line. Getting peak power and torque out of an engine is easy to an experienced calibrator. If you have enough LSX engine tuning under your belt, wide open throttle power and torque are pretty easy to achieve.

Most every naturally aspirated engine likes to be around 12.8 air / fuel ratio at WOT. This called the “best mean torque” area. It is also the same spot where engines make around 4% carbon monoxide. You increase timing until you see your torque peak. That’s pretty much it.

More difficult is the extensive mapping to get better fuel mileage.

Making a claim that your tuner has somehow extracted extra hidden horsepower than anyone else makes no sense.

The transmission tune is really where the difference comes in. A car with the up-shift torque management turned off will pretty much smoke one with it turned on. I have had two stock G8’s line up and race, one with TM on and one off. TM off always wins.

Since the beginning of G8 tuning we have had pretty wide open access to many parameters in the transmission. We decided to keep the TM set to 50% off stock. We will shut it off if directly asked to do so. In my opinion the 50% area is fine for 90% of our customers.

I feel more comfortable, right or wrong, keeping the 50% TM setting in the transmission until we see some that have been driven years with no failures.

I have seen 3 other G8 tunes and all of them had the up-shift TM off.

There seems to be a lot of comparison of the different tunes. You can not compare our 50% TM transmission calibration to one with TM turned off. The one with TM off will always feel better and faster to the performance oriented person.

I think where you go to get your G8 tuned is just personal preference. Many people come to us because of the FlashXpress option, better fuel mileage and customer support.

So I guess my bottom line is that most of the difference you see in the tunes comes from the transmission, mainly torque management, not black magic.

Thanks for the information. It seems pretty logical. I for one will accept the 'less than maximum' performance to keep some up-shift TM until it is proven it is not needed.
Ed

Well said. I have 50% of the Torque Management left on. It is good peace of mind for the Transmission in the long run.

Especially because I plan on further mods to put me in the 12's.

Although, I would love to see how the car runs with the Torque Management removed on the upshift. Hmmmmmmm......

In any event, great explanation Kirk...........


...

Is it possible to have 50% or greater TM in normal mode and less TM, say 0 to 25% TM in sport or manual mode.
This would be the best of both worlds.

Is it possible to have 50% or greater TM in normal mode and less TM, say 0 to 25% TM in sport or manual mode.
This would be the best of both worlds.


gr8t gt: Very good question. That would be a good option to have 0% Torque Management on the upshifts in Sport Mode, and have the normal 50% Torque Management in Normal Mode.


...

Is it possible to have 50% or greater TM in normal mode and less TM, say 0 to 25% TM in sport or manual mode.
This would be the best of both worlds.

along with that, is the 50% TM set for both the Normal and Sport modes with the ECM/TCM tune?

Good information Kirk. You guys do a hell of a job.

Is it possible to have 50% or greater TM in normal mode and less TM, say 0 to 25% TM in sport or manual mode.
This would be the best of both worlds.

I can't speak to VMS's ability, but I know that HP Tuner software will not allow you to go 50% for sport and 90% TM for normal. It will only allow you to reduces TM per shift, 1->2, 2->3 .... 1->3 etc..

You can set all of the different shift points to different percentage reductions but not based on shifting mode.

very true about tuning the trans and TM. i've done close to 100 'street tunes' on 99+ gmc/chevy trucks. 90% of my customers are most impressed with my TM, line pressure and shift timing adjustments. obviously i'm not doing any major fuel adjustments as i've never had a portable WB to read AFRs, just do my best with the narrowbands.

same thing with my G8, nothing is better than a great shifting automatic transmission! as for TM on my G8, i just leave the up shift TM enabled unless i'm in the mood for some nice 'bury you in the seat' shifts! :)

Can Torque Management be anything besides 100%, 50%, or Off?

Can you set it for say, 20% or 10%?

Can Torque Management be anything besides 100%, 50%, or Off?

Can you set it for say, 20% or 10%?

HPT or VMS are you referring to?

as for HPT, the new beta is adjustable to any percentage. i think vector can do the same. i know that's what VMS said before.

Is it possible to have 50% or greater TM in normal mode and less TM, say 0 to 25% TM in sport or manual mode.
This would be the best of both worlds.

gr8t gt: Very good question. That would be a good option to have 0% Torque Management on the upshifts in Sport Mode, and have the normal 50% Torque Management in Normal Mode.


...

Yes, we can pretty much do any of the above. I am now working on a calibration with 50% in normal and 25% sport. I will see how that feels.

Anyone want to put their car up for testing? Give me a call or email.

Yes, we can pretty much do any of the above. I am now working on a calibration with 50% in normal and 25% sport. I will see how that feels.

Anyone want to put their car up for testing? Give me a call or email.


Kirk: Yes, I am definitely 100% interested in getting the Torque Management (on the upshifts) turned off in Sport Mode. I still want to keep the 50% TM in Normal Mode.

Normal Mode shifts are very good for me. I like them. But it would be nice to have a 0% Torque Management option by putting the car in Sport Mode, especially for the dragstrip and spirited street driving. :wink2:

I'll send you an email. Thanks again for the knowledge.


- Mike P. - :)


...

2008 Pontiac G8 GT - Panther Black Metallic

Current Set Up: VMS ECM/TCM Tune, Roto-Fab CAI, HSRK, Yank 3200 Torque Converter, Trans. Cooler, Kooks 1 3/4" LT Headers, high flow cats, stock mufflers.

355 RWHP & 352 RWTQ

Best Time: 13.17 @ 106.88mph w/ 1.943 60' time

Yes, we can pretty much do any of the above. I am now working on a calibration with 50% in normal and 25% sport. I will see how that feels.

Anyone want to put their car up for testing? Give me a call or email.
"Anyone want to put their car up for testing? Give me a call or email."

Done, 11/4/08 12:00 PM PST.

Yes, we can pretty much do any of the above. I am now working on a calibration with 50% in normal and 25% sport. I will see how that feels.

Anyone want to put their car up for testing? Give me a call or email.

I wish I had see this sooner.

I've got an appointment set up at Vector for this Thursday morning 11/6 to re-tune the TCM (torque management).

Being in Michigan has it's perks...... I wish I was in Metro Detroit though.....


...

Well said. I have 50% of the Torque Management left on. It is good peace of mind for the Transmission in the long run....
Although, I would love to see how the car runs with the Torque Management removed on the upshift.


I read a post on the Aus LS1 forum that 6L80 transmissions with Torque Management turned off have been getting 300 - 500 shifts before needing to be rebuilt.

On mine, I changed the shift times (Normal minus 33% and Special minus 50%) and doubled the Max torque but left Torque Management strictly alone.

The car is must better mannered and more drivable now. I'm only interested in drivability enhancements and not full blown racing.

I read a post on the Aus LS1 forum that 6L80 transmissions with Torque Management turned off have been getting 300 - 500 shifts before needing to be rebuilt.

On mine, I changed the shift times (Normal minus 33% and Special minus 50%) and doubled the Max torque but left Torque Management strictly alone.

The car is must better mannered and more drivable now. I'm only interested in drivability enhancements and not full blown racing.


Tom: Thanks for that info......



...

great post.

most people think tuning a motor is some magical thing. its certainly is not

I read a post on the Aus LS1 forum that 6L80 transmissions with Torque Management turned off have been getting 300 - 500 shifts before needing to be rebuilt.


Is this not the same transmission available in full size GM trucks?

I find it hard to believe that a 4K lb car can toast this transmission and a truck capable of 17-18K lb GCWR can run hundreds of thousands of miles towing and plowing snow and not have issues.

There are a bunch of truck guys with TM turned off and not having problems.

Maybe it's the size of the trans coolers?

Since I plan on adding about 40-50hp and to keep transmission longivity, I'm looking at possibly keeping TM 100% in norrmal mode and 50% in sport mode. The 6L80 is a clutch to clutch shift which I understand is not as strong as a clutch and band type transmission. And since this is a new design, there won't be lot of high mileage installations in trucks yet.

great post.

most people think tuning a motor is some magical thing. its certainly is not

Your correct, certainly not magical.

That being said, it does take quite a bit of skill to do it right. Pretty much like any job, the longer you do it the better you get.

A bad tuner can cause serious damage to a very expensive vehicle.

It took me quite a few years to feel comfortable knowing that when a customer brings their car to me they get the best possible tune for their car. Period.
Not just the best possible tune that I can give them.

It took me quite a few years to feel comfortable knowing that when a customer brings their car to me they get the best possible tune for their car. Period.
Not just the best possible tune that I can give them.

You go! :)

I am going to go with your tune and would like to see how the 50% normal and 25% sport works out. I imagine the 25% would also be in the manual mode as well then right?

There seems to be a lot of bad/uninformed information on the tuning of these vehicles.

I thought I would give my two cents on what I know about tuning in general.

I learned how engines were calibrated about 15 years ago when I worked at Katech. I worked on the engine dynamometers so I was around professional engine calibrators all day. In those days we were tuning Busch series and IRL engines. This is where I picked up the basics. The basics do not change from a carbureted engine to a fuel injected engine.

In the last 10 years I have calibrated just under 1000 vehicles on my chassis dyno, almost all of them LSX motors.

Here is the bottom line. Getting peak power and torque out of an engine is easy to an experienced calibrator. If you have enough LSX engine tuning under your belt, wide open throttle power and torque are pretty easy to achieve.

Most every naturally aspirated engine likes to be around 12.8 air / fuel ratio at WOT. This called the “best mean torque” area. It is also the same spot where engines make around 4% carbon monoxide. You increase timing until you see your torque peak. That’s pretty much it.

More difficult is the extensive mapping to get better fuel mileage.

Making a claim that your tuner has somehow extracted extra hidden horsepower than anyone else makes no sense.

The transmission tune is really where the difference comes in. A car with the up-shift torque management turned off will pretty much smoke one with it turned on. I have had two stock G8’s line up and race, one with TM on and one off. TM off always wins.

Since the beginning of G8 tuning we have had pretty wide open access to many parameters in the transmission. We decided to keep the TM set to 50% off stock. We will shut it off if directly asked to do so. In my opinion the 50% area is fine for 90% of our customers.

I feel more comfortable, right or wrong, keeping the 50% TM setting in the transmission until we see some that have been driven years with no failures.

I have seen 3 other G8 tunes and all of them had the up-shift TM off.

There seems to be a lot of comparison of the different tunes. You can not compare our 50% TM transmission calibration to one with TM turned off. The one with TM off will always feel better and faster to the performance oriented person.

I think where you go to get your G8 tuned is just personal preference. Many people come to us because of the FlashXpress option, better fuel mileage and customer support.

So I guess my bottom line is that most of the difference you see in the tunes comes from the transmission, mainly torque management, not black magic.

is the 50 only in Sport mode? Normal mode is the TM changed? or left original?

is the 50 only in Sport mode? Normal mode is the TM changed? or left original?

50% in both modes. The Sport mode does shift firmer though due to shorter shift times and higher line pressure.

Kirk:

Just as information, my car runs awesome since the TCM retune. Thanks again! Still trying to talk the wife into the Vector Stage 1 Cam! :)


...

Kirk:

Just as information, my car runs awesome since the TCM retune. Thanks again! Still trying to talk the wife into the Vector Stage 1 Cam! :)


...


Come on in! Your mods are screaming for a camshaft.

I know, * sigh * :)


...

Kirk:

Just as information, my car runs awesome since the TCM retune. Thanks again! Still trying to talk the wife into the Vector Stage 1 Cam! :)


...

Did you end up with the 50% normal and 25% sport or the 50% normal and 0% tq mngt sport?

Or did you just end up with the original VMS TCM tune?

Thanks

Ok, I know this might be a dumb question. But, what does the torque management do exactly? Does it simple make gear changes engage quicker? Harder?

Another question I have is when I'm seeing results from engine tunes. Why is it that the Hp always seems to be higher than the Tq, when the factory Tq rating is so much higher than the HP to begin with..? Does the tune only affect the HP rating and not the Tq? I told you it was probably a dumb question.. I'm used to the Hp being a bit higher than the TQ with EVO tuning, so I might just be backwards.. I dunno..

Ok, I know this might be a dumb question. But, what does the torque management do exactly? Does it simple make gear changes engage quicker? Harder?

Another question I have is when I'm seeing results from engine tunes. Why is it that the Hp always seems to be higher than the Tq, when the factory Tq rating is so much higher than the HP to begin with..? Does the tune only affect the HP rating and not the Tq? I told you it was probably a dumb question.. I'm used to the Hp being a bit higher than the TQ with EVO tuning, so I might just be backwards.. I dunno..

Hmm, not sure where you're seeing the HP higher than the torque after a tune. Vector posted a dyno result where the base run was 304hp/315ft-lbs, then after the tune, it was 335hp/348ft-lbs. Sounds about right.

VMS tunes are tried and true,GeoInNePa 12.56 and my 12.66 are 1/4 mile proof that Kirk knows what he is talking about.

Guys, get the stage 2 tcm tune! I got mine re-tuned this week end and it totally transformed the car (I also got the updated ecm tune). What I thought was a dog (compared to what others were writing) is now a beast.

Drive is still smooth shifting yet it can bark the tires on a 1 to 2 shift. Sport is flat out wicked and will lay down some massive stripes if that's your thing. This tune is AMAZING I just can't say enough about how much stronger the car feels. The TM really hold this car back and Kirk has done an killer job of getting the combo of drive/sport modes spot on!

Thank you Kirk!

Guys, get the stage 2 tcm tune! I got mine re-tuned this week end and it totally transformed the car (I also got the updated ecm tune). What I thought was a dog (compared to what others were writing) is now a beast.

Drive is still smooth shifting yet it can bark the tires on a 1 to 2 shift. Sport is flat out wicked and will lay down some massive stripes if that's your thing. This tune is AMAZING I just can't say enough about how much stronger the car feels. The TM really hold this car back and Kirk has done an killer job of getting the combo of drive/sport modes spot on!

Thank you Kirk!

Pardon the stupid question, but whats the "stage 2" ecm tune? Something been updated and I missed it?

^^^^^^ditto.

There isn't a stage 2 ECM tune. There is however an updated engine tune. The stage 2 TCM tune is for more a agressive driver :driving:

My ecm was only updated, I was referring to the tcm for the stage 2, for me that was 40% tm in drive and 25% in sport and manual.

Yesterday I installed the Vararam, HSRK and the VMS ECM/TCM Tune. Holy crap. She scares me now. Sounds so much throatier and the acceleration, forget about it. INSANE! I know everybody has praised VMS before but I have to give them kudos as well. The customer service is the best too. The car should have come from the factory like this. Great job Kirk and everybody at Vector Motorsports. Keep up the quality work!

I'll be getting my VMS powerflash express cable this Friday. This will actually be my second VMS tune. I had a VMS tune put into my A6 GXP back when I had that- the transmission shifting difference was dramatic. I know with the M6 now I won't see that change, but it will be interesting to see if I can tell any other difference between the M6 and A6 tune. I'm still hoping for that apparent SOTP difference at least

There is however an updated engine tune.

When was this 'new' ECM tune generated?

-Todd...

There isn't a stage 2 ECM tune. There is however an updated engine tune. The stage 2 TCM tune is for more a agressive driver :driving:


What was changed in the updatd tune? Inqurying minds would like to know :)

Me too...When was the ECM updated? What changed? If I don't have the update, is it beneficial to get the new one?

Thanks Vector.

The ECM update was done awhile ago. The update cured an off the line "bog" condition.

What was the final verdict on the stage 2 tcm tune? 50% / 25% ?

what was the final verdict on the stage 2 tcm tune? 50% / 25% ?

40%/25%/25%

40%/25%/25%


This is the set up that I'm using, and I like it allot but have to give a word of caution about it.

Be VERY CAREFUL about getting on it in a turn. That shift from first to second hits hard and will bark the tires regardless of having the traction control on or not. I once did a manual shift into 2nd (traction control off)thinking that I could control the slide like some drift racer and damn near totaled the car it spun around so fast.

It's a great tune to get the most power out of the car at a safe level in a straight line. The trade off would be that if you were on a race track with the car in sport mode and pin the throttle around a big bend you would have to let up on the gas at the shift or likely you would spin out (yes with the traction control on).

I should also mention that my car would NOT spin the tires what so ever even off the line before this tune. Now it barks third with 285's! Just watch out, it's a little harder to drift than you might think.

I just bought a new laptop with Windows 7. Can I use my powerflash cables? Kirk sent me a new TCM tune but I have the old CD and I'm getting errrors about "missing files" I don't even know if I'm installing the program the right way.
Anyone experience this and what is the fix?

Thanks,
RJ

I had issues with Win7. Kirk emailed me the updated program which resolved my issues. Now it runs like it did when I was on Vista. Send Kirk an email and he should be able to help. Or PM me and I'll send the program your way.

Here is the file posted by Kirk on another thread. I had to get this from him as well for my Windows 7 laptop.

http://www.g8board.com/forums/showpost.php?p=502154&postcount=15

Thanks

Ok so I'm glad I found this thread and I may be a little late and confused but....
1. What exactly are you getting with the VMS ECM/TCM tune?
2. Is there a way to update tunes without having to mail the ECM back everytime?
3. What does the FlashXpress and VMS PowerCal cable do?
4. Since I am in Hawaii what's the best/quickest option for me?
Sorry for being so new at all this. That's what forums are for right?

I'm no expert, but I will try to answer what I know about.
1. More horsepower, better throttle response, firmer shifts, or hard shifts if you use Stage 2.
2. Yes, get the PowerCal cable.
3. FlashXpress and PowerCal allow you to install the VMS tune into your car's computer yourself using your laptop.
4. FlashXpress and PowerCal are prob. the fastest and least expensive way since shipping to and from Hawaii is somewhat pricey for overnight services. Once you receive your software and cable, it only takes 2 emails to tune your G8. Their website says 24 hour turn around, but they are VERY busy. It took 36 hours to get mine. I'm not knocking them at all. They were great to work with. They apologized 3 times for "taking so long." I can highly recommend Vector.

Sweet. Why does it take two tunes? And can you explain the difference concerning Stage 1 and 2 tunes other than hard or soft shifts? I keep hearing that people get smooth shifts on normal and agressive hard shifts for sport. Does TM stay the same on both modes for their respective Stage tunes? If that even makes sense....

It takes 2 tunes because their are 2 control modules, 1 for engine and 1 for transmission. the 2 stages mentioned are for the trans. tune. I have stage 1 installed for now and I really only notice the harder shifting when I accelerate hard. Just casually driving to and from work its not a big difference.

Sweet. Why does it take two tunes? And can you explain the difference concerning Stage 1 and 2 tunes other than hard or soft shifts? I keep hearing that people get smooth shifts on normal and agressive hard shifts for sport. Does TM stay the same on both modes for their respective Stage tunes? If that even makes sense....


There are several calibrations available, we can turn off the AFM as well as two different trans cal's. We can tune the torque management by mode, Stage 2 seems to be more popular.

It takes 2 tunes because their are 2 control modules, 1 for engine and 1 for transmission. the 2 stages mentioned are for the trans. tune. I have stage 1 installed for now and I really only notice the harder shifting when I accelerate hard. Just casually driving to and from work its not a big difference.

So does stage 2 TCM shift hard even under daily driving?

I flashed stg 2 last week and it is so much better than stg 1. On stg 1, on a cold start, it would shift hard into D from P and I got the occasional 2-3 flare until it warmed up. With stg. 2, no more hard shifting or flare and it shifts smoother with a kick (pulls harder).

Light throttle on Stage 2 is fairly smooth, mid throttle and up it kicks pretty good. As it chirps the 1-2 at 50% in Sport, which at my altitude is not easy. In D, it is smoother, but will still get your attention if you have a heavy foot.