Despite strong interest within GM, the VE Sportwagon will not make it to America

By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS in DETROIT 15 January 2008
www.goauto.com.au

HOLDEN will not export the VE Sportwagon to the United States in the foreseeable future as Americans continue to ignore wagons in virtually any size and form – in contrast to the situation in Europe where such vehicles have a healthy share of the market.

This was the bombshell dropped by General Motors' product czar Bob Lutz this week to the Australian media at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

"We looked at that, but the amount of change to meet US regulations was going to be quite a lot of money," Mr Lutz said. "And the sad truth is, as much as some of us like 'sportwagons', they just don't sell in the US.

"How often do you see an Audi wagon? How often do you see a BMW wagon? How often do you see a Mercedes wagon? The answer is, almost never.

"They're just not fashionable. I can't explain why."

Mr Lutz revealed that he championed the VE wagon strongly, but was shouted down by the number crunchers who could not make a strong enough business case for the Australian Commodore carryall.

"We have the product idea: We say: 'Hey, how about taking the (Holden) Sportwagon and doing a (US Pontiac) G8 Sportwagon of it," he said.

"Then we turn it over to the marketing guys, who do the volume analysis, and they look at sales of Audi A4 wagons … zero. BMW 3 Series wagons: close to zero. Mercedes C-class wagon and E-class – it's all close to zero. The Jaguar X-Type … it was sales proof!

"But then we say: 'Well, we think this one looks so good, that it can overcome that, and the volume planners say: well … we can only do two to three thousand, which is not worth the investment.

"So, reluctantly, in my particular case, I reluctantly gave up on that one."

The production version of the VE Sportswagon – which made a splash at last October's Australian International Motor Show in Sydney – is due to arrive early in the second quarter of this year.


http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/59DB1B5AFB7D4B1ACA2573D10014EB68

Good decision. Wagons don't sell here. Anybody that might have wanted a domestic sport wagon already has a Magnum. I can't imagine that it would have been worth the $$ to bring the car over here.

I disagree, this would have been the perfect time to bring it here.

Certain areas of the country would support well enough of a market fro them. I can't take a drive without seeing wagons, including Audis, Volvos, Subarus. Maybe the market is not the full-size chassis, but instead mid-size. But there is a market - look at all teh 3 door hatches, all they really are is shortened wagons. What about crossovers like Pacifica, and even Avenger, just simply wagons on steroids.

Sonuvabitch.

Had they brought it here, I wouldn't have hesitated to order a sportwagon GT with a manual transmission. Announced. Ordered. Done.

Bastards.

:(

I can't believe they're willing to axe the SW and think the ST will still sell. I see a smaller demographic for the ST than I do the SW, if nothing other than passenger capacity alone. We all saw how big a flop the SSR was, while this will be less expensive, otherwise how is it any different?

Not Surprised

The sportwagon has the potential to outsell the CTS coupe, don't you think? maybe GM's marketing team should re-examine the price-point on the SW and come up with a business case for a small number of heavily optioned (read: V8 only) units....

CTS Diesel Coupe or a G8 Wagon? Come on that's not even going to be close. CTS Coupe with a 6 speed turbo diesel, I'd be one of the first ones in line with a check.

Its either mini wagon around here or SUV. Makes sense, sucks, but makes sense.

well hopefully the ST still makes it over here

If they can't make a business case for the SW, I can't imagine the ST would make one either. Being more "niche-y" than a wagon and all. Maybe they'll do it at a loss just to make a statement.

Disappointed, but not surprised. Tough case to jump into a niche market that you're not really a player in, so from a business case standpoint, not surprising at all.

That said, I loved my A4 Avant and can't wait to see what the next gen A4/S4 Avant will be like.

well hopefully the ST still makes it over here

If they can't make a business case for the SW, I can't imagine the ST would make one either. Being more "niche-y" than a wagon and all. Maybe they'll do it at a loss just to make a statement.

I'll be glad to help GM absorb some of the loss of the ST.

I would of liked to see GM bring the wagon on over.


I'm still deciding on a ST or a Camaro........

well hopefully the ST still makes it over here

Watching Barrett Jackson, one of the announcers stated that GM announced today that they would import the UTE as a Pontiac. I'm looking for a little more info.

Certain areas of the country would support well enough of a market fro them. I can't take a drive without seeing wagons, including Audis, Volvos, Subarus.

Are these AWDs?

NO SW? Maybe the cancellation of the Magnum was the early death knell for this model and we missed it? The ute is still a go, and Mr. Lutz has indicated a Crewman; i.e. four door version of the ute could make it to GMC dealers in the future.

Rats! It would have been a nice alternative to the SUV and CUV...and arn't the CUVs just big wagons. It's just a matter of time...

Good decision. Wagons don't sell here. Anybody that might have wanted a domestic sport wagon already has a Magnum. I can't imagine that it would have been worth the $$ to bring the car over here.

Stupid decision. Chrysler moved a large number of Magnums per year, more than Holden has capacity to build G8 wagons. The decision by both companies to kill their wagons is not only sad, but also suspect. I see at least five Magnums a day along with numerous Volvo and Subaru wagons. There is a large, healthy market for them that some manufacturers exploit.

This is a punch to the face of Holden who greenlighted the wagon based on it's US export potential.

I wouldn't be surprised if the G8 Ute was cancelled as well. The falling US dollar, CAFE, $100+ per barrel of oil and an economy teetering on the brink is conspiring to kill American-style performance cars.

Signed up for and just received an update today on the Holden Sportwagon. They are obviously advertising the bajebers out of them in Australia, so must be selling OK there!

Signed up for and just received an update today on the Holden Sportwagon. They are obviously advertising the bajebers out of them in Australia, so must be selling OK there!

Not on sale yet, not till March or after.. not seen an ad for it except what's on the Holden site (then again I don't watch much commercial TV...).

Probably the right decision per the bean counters - but GM needs to get some desirable product out there.

Oh well the new V70 can be had for under 35K, the G35 wagon, um I mean EX35, looks worth a look, and maybe a turbo Subie.

The Magnum was 1) a Chrylser product, 2) Fugly, 3) not practical with the squished rear roof. If wagon buyers want something impractical there are a lot of SUVs out there.

I would think BMW would sell more wagons if they properly equiped them. Over the last 15 years the BMW wagons have typically been offered with the smaller engine and autotragic tranny or 4wd.

I was wondering lately about why wagons are so unpopular yet SUV's remain strong despite gas prices.

I wondered if it was because of parents with small kids, having to lean down to buckle them in the back seat with a wagon, whereas the SUV positions the child seat at standing height for parents. For dads with bad backs and momma's with weak upperbody strength, it's just easier to load the kids or heavy shopping bags. That leaves wagons to the customers with large hobby toys to keep from rain, parents with older children, and yuppy DINK's that appreciate the sportiness and fuel mileage gain over an SUV.

It's too bad, I love wagons, and if I had a more compelling reason to get one, I would. No kids yet...Even though my wife had a XC70 that was very practical, it's unreliability forced us to get rid of it. I would still love a 3 or 5 series AWD wagon as a DD.

I was wondering lately about why wagons are so unpopular yet SUV's remain strong despite gas prices.


As I see it, part of it is perceived safety, the bigger the better. Little car vs big SUV, guess which comes out the loser?:shiner: Another part of it is, and this is pathetic, keeping up with the Jones. SUV's have become the vehicle of choice for the soccer Moms and former soccer Moms.:boink: You very often seen women so small in SUVs so big, they literally have to stand up in front of the drivers seat to see in front of the vehicle before they can properly park the thing!:boink: Can't count the times I have witnessed this event! So until the fad comes to and end, gas prices may or may not do it, you will see SUV's continue to sell in numbers that are unnatural, and for uses far from the vehicles original intent.:boink:

As I see it, part of it is perceived safety, the bigger the better. Little car vs big SUV, guess which comes out the loser?:shiner: Another part of it is, and this is pathetic, keeping up with the Jones. SUV's have become the vehicle of choice for the soccer Moms and former soccer Moms.:boink: You very often seen women so small in SUVs so big, they literally have to stand up in front of the drivers seat to see in front of the vehicle before they can properly park the thing!:boink: Can't count the times I have witnessed this event! So until the fad comes to and end, gas prices may or may not do it, you will see SUV's continue to sell in numbers that are unnatural, and for uses far from the vehicles original intent.:boink:

If any of you have 3 kids, then you'll understand the lure of the big SUV. Anything smaller forces you to leave things at home and forces the kids to sit shoulder to shoulder and fight and arguee more. I love all the room SUV's offer.

I don't have any kids, however, I grew up in a 5 person family. We never had to leave anything behind. And now, because everyone loves their SUVs they're going to make the rest of us who don't buy them pay for it anyways.

Although depending on how long since you were a kid, the car seat laws may have gotten quite a bit more stingent since then - I know that's my issue anyway; plenty of room for everyone, but not for all of their required safety gear!

I don't have any kids, however, I grew up in a 5 person family. We never had to leave anything behind. And now, because everyone loves their SUVs they're going to make the rest of us who don't buy them pay for it anyways.

Uhmmm, I'm 26. The car seat laws have not changed that drastically. ;) Buckled in, shoulder straps, etc etc etc.

Uhmmm, I'm 26. The car seat laws have not changed that drastically. ;) Buckled in, shoulder straps, etc etc etc.
Crap! When I was little, my folks just threw us in the trunk to make room. :)

If any of you have 3 kids, then you'll understand the lure of the big SUV. Anything smaller forces you to leave things at home and forces the kids to sit shoulder to shoulder and fight and arguee more. I love all the room SUV's offer.

Kids are grown, we didn't have an SUV when they were small, mini van for a few years was as close as we got. No arguing, either.:damnyou: Dad didn't put up with that crap when he was driving! Then again, we had the choice of a station wagon if we so desired too!:bomb: So, do you often go off road with your SUV? Or would the station wagon have worked?:boink:

Gotcha, I'm 28, and it's been a big difference for me - though I know it also varies by state.

I know my parents never had to put me in a car seat, and the four and under in a car seat that's been around for a while I could deal with. But now that I have three kids and the laws here changed a few years back to require a booster seat until you're 7(which by the way is pretty difficult for a 5 year-old to buckle themselves into when you've got it sitting next to another car seat), it does get to be a challege. Certainly doable - that's why the hip-room stats for the g8 appeal to me, but also a big part of why I bought the envoy.

Uhmmm, I'm 26. The car seat laws have not changed that drastically. ;) Buckled in, shoulder straps, etc etc etc.

Gotcha, I'm 28, and it's been a big difference for me - though I know it also varies by state.

I know my parents never had to put me in a car seat, though the four and under in a car seat that's been around for a while I could deal with. But now that I have three kids and the laws here changed a few years back to require a booster seat until you're 7 (which by the way is pretty difficult for a 5 year-old to buckle themselves into when you've got it sitting next to another car seat), it does get to be a challege. Certainly doable - that's why the hip-room stats for the g8 appeal to me, but also a big part of why I bought the envoy.

Uhmmm, I'm 26. The car seat laws have not changed that drastically. ;) Buckled in, shoulder straps, etc etc etc.

I work near the Holden factory in Melbourne and I saw one of these wagons last week but wasn't quick enough to snap a pic on the phone camera. A very good looking wagon though - Every bit as good as the sedan!

Arg. I was really hoping to get a rug rat hauler that was not lame. SUVs are booring to drive. When I read this I just bit the bullet and bought a CX-9. It's a fine ride. But while less booring that most SUV/CUVs it's still booring.

I see Subie wagons, Audi A4s and Magnums all over the place here in Seattle.

And Pontiac thinks people will buy the truck? LAMO. What they'll to is go "LOL! Remember the elCamino?" and pass on it.

Stupid decision. Chrysler moved a large number of Magnums per year, more than Holden has capacity to build G8 wagons. The decision by both companies to kill their wagons is not only sad, but also suspect. I see at least five Magnums a day along with numerous Volvo and Subaru wagons. There is a large, healthy market for them that some manufacturers exploit.

This is a punch to the face of Holden who greenlighted the wagon based on it's US export potential.

I wouldn't be surprised if the G8 Ute was cancelled as well. The falling US dollar, CAFE, $100+ per barrel of oil and an economy teetering on the brink is conspiring to kill American-style performance cars.


I see Volvos and Subarus all over the place -- and a good number of BMWs and Mercedes, too. Today's wagon is not the same as those beloved woodgrained family haulers of yesteryear. A G8 Sportwagon would be a great addition to the American roads. And I'm really tired of comparing the Holden Sportwagon to the Magnum in the looks department. Holden -- classy, sophisticated, sporty performance machine. Magnum -- sporty but weird shape, not for everyone, reminds me of a hearse (what would satan drive?). Check out this Holden website and see how they're not the least bit scared to offer many versions of the Sportwagon. They've put a lot of their heart and soul into it:

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/

I think the Sport-truck is a really cool idea and I can't wait 'til it gets here. But when compared to the Sportwagon, it loses the argument for practicality for more than 2 people. Remember the good ol' days when every model was offered in numerous body styles? Today we're lucky if we get more than a sedan. Mr. Lutz, if you're listening, please reconsider bringing the Sportwagon here to us. At lease try it for a few years and see how it goes. That way, I and others who want one can get one! The G8 sedan is nice, the Sport-truck is unique, but at my age, I'd like a little more practical and sensible transportation. But make sure you leave those hood scoops right where they are! Oh yeah, and the Monaro coupe as a GTO would be perfect for my mid-life crisis, when I can afford one!

Somehow, Outbacks are considered 'trucks' for CAFE requirements. Any way to do this with the Holden Wagon? Bob -- BRING IT!!

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/I think the Sport-truck is a really cool idea and I can't wait 'til it gets here. But when compared to the Sportwagon, it loses the argument for practicality for more than 2 people.

The ST is a very good idea. Look at all the Chevy people screaming for it to be an El Camino! As far as it being for only 2 people, do you do much commuting and notice how many people are in most of the cars around you? Statistics show most of the cars today run around with only one or two people in them, most of the time. So if trucks are still popular, and people drive a lot alone, why not pander to them, and create a vehicle that allows for both? It worked very well for over 20 years, and probably will work very well again!:thumbsup:

I believe it will be sell decently as people are looking to down size trucks. GM may have finally hit a segment as it's needed as opposed to comming too late to the party. Did you ever notice how GM will remove itself from a segment then it looks at the segment again and says "hey, we need a piece of this"? Coupes seem to be this area now.

[QUOTE=Eddie Fiero;26695]Check out this Holden website and see how they're not the least bit scared to offer many versions of the Sportwagon. They've put a lot of their heart and soul into it:

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/

This is the problem....the boys in Detroit have no heart and they have no soul. Many of them aren't even car guys!

After I viewed the sportwagon spot on their website, I concluded two things:

1) I want a Holden Sportwagon!

2) I want the Aussie chick to go with it! :gears:

OK so the wagon's not gonna make it. What are they going to name the Ute? How about the Road Warrior?

You know station wagons are out of fashion when Volvo is embarrassed to have one. Went to the Denver Auto Show and Volvo had their new V70 way in the far back of their booth, in the corner of the building, behind their rep stand.

Not much hope for the G8 SW I guess.

----

Would have been nice to be able to sit in a G8 - the single one was on a raised rotation stand.

BTW The Infiniti EX35, doesn't have that much rear leg room. Sorta hoping for a wagon version of the G35, but with raised roof they shortened the wheel base.

Arg. I was really hoping to get a rug rat hauler that was not lame. SUVs are booring to drive. When I read this I just bit the bullet and bought a CX-9. It's a fine ride. But while less booring that most SUV/CUVs it's still booring.

I see Subie wagons, Audi A4s and Magnums all over the place here in Seattle.

And Pontiac thinks people will buy the truck? LAMO. What they'll to is go "LOL! Remember the elCamino?" and pass on it.

Plenty of Subie and volvo wagon in NNJ. I think the G8 wagon would do well, especially as it looks as if people are tiring of SUVs. Especially if the wagon had two bucket seats in the second row and an adult sized third row like an SUV

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/AMS08/100_2955.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/AMS08/100_2956.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/AMS08/100_2957.jpg

Asylum, great shots of the wagon. Is that an '08 or '09? Or are all wagons '09s? In any case, very nice looking car, much better than the Magnum. You guys get any of those in OZ, or are you relegated to pics only?

wagons arent being built yet, so no idea what model year they'll be! that does have the 09 Calais-V wheels on it thought.

we dont get the Magnum in australia, but we do get the 300C wagon. It never really took off any where near as much as the sedan, even though wagons are normally very popular.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/AMS08/100_2955.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/AMS08/100_2956.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/asylum83/AMS08/100_2957.jpg
I was there too - a few hours later! Didn't take any wagons - excepting what you can see of the same one you photographed - was too in love with the Coupe60 (you can't see the drool in these shots.. (me in red and white Monaro shirt, natch). Wagon side window vision (from inside) was pretty poor I thought, but then I'm used to excellent side vision HQs and V2s.
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk297/mangotango_01/AdelaideMotorShow2008020.jpg?
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk297/mangotango_01/AdelaideMotorShow2008018.jpg?

I was there too - a few hours later! Didn't take any wagons - was too in love with the Coup60 (you can't see the drool in these shots.. (me in red and white Monaro shirt, natch)
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk297/mangotango_01/AdelaideMotorShow2008020.jpg?
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk297/mangotango_01/AdelaideMotorShow2008018.jpg?

From what I can see its a great looking wagon. Does it have 3 rows of seats? I think it would be awesome with 6 bucket seats.

wagons arent being built yet, so no idea what model year they'll be! that does have the 09 Calais-V wheels on it thought.

we dont get the Magnum in australia, but we do get the 300C wagon. It never really took off any where near as much as the sedan, even though wagons are normally very popular.

Funny, thought I'd seen on the Holden site that the wagon was in production, must've been something else. The 300C wagon is probably the Magnum, with a different name, there was no 300C wagon here.

Plenty of Subie and volvo wagon in NNJ.

Subaru doesn't sell a true wagon any more in the US, just the SUV-wannabe Outbacks.

Subaru doesn't sell a true wagon any more in the US, just the SUV-wannabe Outbacks.

LOL, yep wannabes. Look like wagons to me.

Is that an '08 or '09? Or are all wagons '09s?

Cars arent known as model years in Oz. You refer to them as "08 or 09", we refer to them by their 2 letter model designation. In this case, that wagon would be known simply as a VE wagon, regardless of what year is was built. When the next model comes out it will change to say VF. Minor upgrades are common midway through a model, in Holdens case they usually give the minor upgrade a "series 2" badge. So currently we have a VE series 1 (though no badging saying series 1), and when the marketing upgrade of the VE comes out (if it does and if Holden stay true to form) it will be known as a VE series II.

From what I can see its a great looking wagon. Does it have 3 rows of seats? I think it would be awesome with 6 bucket seats.

6 buckets would be dynamite!!! Another segment buster to sit in my driveway next to my ST!!:thumbsup:

And here's the Chrysler 300 Touring -- 300 face with Magnum body!?! :confused:

The 300C wagon is probably the Magnum, with a different name, there was no 300C wagon here.

are you serious? thats strange if true, sure the chassis are pretty much identical, but you'd think if they sold it here it'd be on sale in the US

http://www.dodgeforum.com/upfiles/284/255E74937E4A41F7BD64AD22EF1DF029.jpg

Over here we would say that was a Dodge Magnum with a 300C grill.

And here's the Chrysler 300 Touring -- 300 face with Magnum body!?! :confused:

The 300 wagon looks goofy. Reminds me of all of the silverado trucks you see riding around with escalade front ends. Belongs on pimp my ride...

are you serious? thats strange if true, sure the chassis are pretty much identical, but you'd think if they sold it here it'd be on sale in the US

http://www.dodgeforum.com/upfiles/284/255E74937E4A41F7BD64AD22EF1DF029.jpg

I don't think Dodge is sold outside the US, so if Chrysler wanted to sell the wagon outside the US (where wagons are popular), they had to put the 300 face on it. Apparently, Chrysler didn't want to market a 300 wagon in the US.

are you serious? thats strange if true, sure the chassis are pretty much identical, but you'd think if they sold it here it'd be on sale in the US

http://www.dodgeforum.com/upfiles/284/255E74937E4A41F7BD64AD22EF1DF029.jpg

Serious as a heartbeat my friend! As was stated by others here earlier, that is a Dodge Magnum with a Chrysler 300 grill. And it does look funny from my/our point of view. Hope you enjoyed it. They have stopped production on it, at least here as a Dodge....althou I can't believe the non-US market would be enough to keep it going elsewhere.:sneaky:

I personally think the wagon would sell better than the ST. I bet that the ST will only survive a couple years. It's too much of a niche vehicle. I'm not hating on the ST, I just think the business case for the wagon would've been stronger.

So currently we have a VE series 1 (though no badging saying series 1), and when the marketing upgrade of the VE comes out (if it does and if Holden stay true to form) it will be known as a VE series II.

Or they could use VE SP2 (Service Pack 2) if they want to get right up to date with the modern lingo..
Seriously, you're right about the model codes - I heard it said that it was because outside of the US/Canada most companies could not afford to change models annually so the model code (Holdens actually call it the VE series I believe, not the VE model, so series code is more proper but confusing with the Series 2 protocol you mention.. ). The exception was the first Holden the "48" series released not surprisingly in 1948 (the 215 in 48-215 was the model number, 225 being the later Special, 235 Premier, and similar codes were used for other bodystyles' model numbers).
Did you know that they had a system after the 48 such that the F in FJ meant 1950s, E meant 1960's and the second letter was the year of intended release in a reverse sequence of K-B = 1-9 (probably A for 0 but they never had one). FJ was '52 (though held back till '53), FE was '56 and FC '58, FB was '59 (also held back till Jan. '60), EK was '61 despite being the same body as FB, EJ was '62 (on time) so of course EH was '63. If this was extrapolated back the 48 series which is commonly referred to as the FX might have been the GC? By '65 some claim GM-H reckoned too many had cracked the codes and HD (original styling prototypes were EFs but then the HD was a design eminating from Detroit by impost) was supposed to be David Hegland (Holden's MD)'s initials backwards and the following big Holden codes until Commodore were random (even for the V cars they left gaps which they seem now to be utilising as in VE being after VZ, not between VC and VH as might have been expected).

The little Holdens were a little more "normal" but had their kinks too e.g. the HA Viva led to the HB Viva in the UK and HB Torana in OZ. The LC, though touted as meaning "Light Car" to emphasise the "light car with a six cylinder" concept that it represented (never mind you could still get a short nosed four LC Torrie), was probably because they couldn't use HC as Vauxhall had built a whole new HC Viva and the LC was really a continuation of the HB body suitably updated for local duty during the late '60s and early 70's. Then came LJ, then LH (all new body again), then LX prior to the next facelifted series being named UC to fit in with the idea it was now a "U" body (as per Commodore being "V", and leftover HQ-Z big Holdens became "W" as in WB and then WH-WM Statesman). With a UD series stillborn it makes you wonder if the C in UC meant LH and LX could be considered UA and UB?
The TA Torana took over from LJ four cylinders when LH 6 and now V8s came out until the release of the TX Gemini (our version of the little "Buick by Opel-Isuzu" in the US though also related to the Chevrolet Chevette). The facelifted TC followed then by TD/E/F updates so again should TX really have been a TB series? For a very brief period I think the TX and LX and HX were all on the market together, the only reason I can think of the X being used on the L and T bodies!

I don't think Dodge is sold outside the US, so if Chrysler wanted to sell the wagon outside the US (where wagons are popular), they had to put the 300 face on it. Apparently, Chrysler didn't want to market a 300 wagon in the US.

They have recently started to market the Dodge range in Australia. I say market because I don't think they sell many...

The range consists of the Nitro, Caliber and Avenger. They get bagged in reviews. They have also added the Chrysler Sebring to the 300C, PT Cruiser, Grand Voyager and Crossfire that they already sold.

The bottom is dropping out of the truck and SUV market in the US. Sales of those vehicles are down double-digit percentages at every major automaker. Crossovers though still fuel guzzlers are taking up a bit of the slack, compact cars are enjoying a sales explosion...

And GM's Pontiac family hauler will stay in Australia. Ridiculous.

I can see how importing the ST will help GM's CAFE requirements, it will most likely be classified as a truck and many will find this an option to a larger 2WD pickup.

I say bring the wagon anyway... The Magnum was not the only wagon sold in the US and GM should not guage interest solely on that wagon.

C'mon Bob -- Bring IT!

I can see how importing the ST will help GM's CAFE requirements, it will most likely be classified as a truck and many will find this an option to a larger 2WD pickup.



Interesting. Import cars and trucks are separate fleets for CAFE, so the G8 GT will get grouped with the Aveo and such.

But trucks are all lumped together, so the G8 ST will get lumped in with Suburbans, pickups, minivans, and such.

I'm not sure I understand the rationale that you can't possibly start importing a sport wagon because they're just not fashionable, and yet your on the band wagon of a sport truck - aka El Camino. I'd love to hear what the marketing guys say about that. I'm sorry, but that's got Aztek written all over it if they don't do it right.

And how is it that Bob L. isn't sure about why wagons aren't fashionable in the U.S.? Because every freaking kid over 28 got dragged around in one as kids. "Grocery getter" ring a bell? The mini-van is facing a similar fate as we speak. These stigmas initiated the very concept of the sport utility vehicle. We needed something to haul all of our crap around in that wasn't a wagon or a mini-van, because those aren't cool.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Sorry, but there is nothing "cool" about an SUV, either, to my eye. First, there is nothing "sport" about a "sport" utility vehicle. Second, unless you remove back seats, they are woefully short on luggage space because the storage areas are vertical in the back and you have to stack crap on top of other crap, and then you need the thing that's on the bottom. So much for the "utility" designation. Then you have the truck chassis, lower gearing, and ride and handling issues which means a high rollover potential and high fuel consumption. That's not to say they don't have a place, but if I want to haul stuff, I get a truck.

I'm sad its not coming, I think wagons are hot.

One thing I've learned is this: when the reasons given don't make sense... then we don't know the real reason. There is some other factor in the decision not to bring the wagon and it may just be that they want to see how the sedan sells first.

One thing I've learned is this: when the reasons given don't make sense... then we don't know the real reason. There is some other factor in the decision not to bring the wagon and it may just be that they want to see how the sedan sells first.

BINGO!!:iagree:

This is my first post here. I just joined the forum so I could keep an eye on the G8. I traded my Magnum in at 80k miles in November (long story - company car) and would have bought a G8 in a heartbeat if they were available. Alas, I ended up with an Altima - A great car with that FWD flaw. Needless to say, as soon as the odo hits 79,500, I'll be pulling into the nearest Pontiac Dealer to test out a G8.

I agree with 2008WhiteGT. Bringing the ST to the states before the SW is silly. I can't imagine that there is a lot of demand for another El Camino. I'm sure a bunch of die-hard Chevy fans are clammoring for an El Camino type car, but in the grand scheme of things, they would be a small group. Someone mentioned that there aren't a whole lot of sales for the BMW, Audi, and Jag wagons. Those are typically in a higher price point and are usually smaller than the SW or Dodge Magnum/300 Touring. As a former Dodge Magnum owner (who really really regrets selling my Magnum) I definitely see a need for a wagon. Each day I go without my Magnum, I realize how useful having a wagon is compared to a sedan.

My desire for a wagon is simple. I like having the space to haul cargo (Magnum has 72 Cu. Ft. interior cargo volume...same as Cadillac SRX) wihle having a fun car to drive that gets decent MPGs. With 340HP (the 2009's would have had 360+hp) I consistently got 25MPG Hwy. I can't recall any V6 SUVs that have a fuel consumption close to that. My dad's 05 Acura MDX only gets around 18-20MPG Hwy. Also, unlike SUVs, wagons don't have the same rollover potential.

The Magnum could have succeeded, but was a victim of poor timing. My Magnum had a much better quality than the other 2 Chrysler products I owned. The transmission, chassis, and suspension are all from the Mercedes E class. At the time of it's demise, the Magnum was selling 3500-4000 units per month, which is pretty decent. Unfortunately, a year after the Magnum was introduced, Dodge released the Charger and completely forgot about the Magnum. I don't recall seeing any advertising for the Magnum after the 2006 debut of the Charger. People can't buy something that they don't exist. Then Cerberus bought Chrysler and that's where the defication hit the ventilation. The Challenger is built at the same plant as the Magnum/Charger/300, so I feel that Chrysler killed off the Magnum to make room at the factory for the Challenger. If Chrysler advertised the Magnum as a Crossover with as much storage space as a Caddy SRX, more HP than a Mustang, and better MPGs than any non-hybrid SUV (heck, the Lexus RX400h only gets 2MPG better than the Magnum on the Hwy), they could have had a hit on their hands...especially with gas hitting $4/gallon.

For those wondering about the 300 Touring in Europe. It's is pretty much a Magnum with the front end of a 300. It also has the 300's interior which is slightly different than the Magnum, and has a few extra features that were unavailable on the Magnum. They're made in Austria somewhere, so I doubt that we'll see those coming to the states anytime soon.

Sorry for my long introductory post. With all of this said, I am looking to get a G8 in about 2 years or so (when I reach 80k miles) and would love for that G8 to be a wagon with a manual transmission. I suppose a lot can happen in 2 years, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that they reconsider bringing the wagon stateside.

I'll be reading these forums and learning as much about these cars as I can! If anyone over here has a general curiosity about the Magnum (or Charger and 300), there is a wealth of information at www.lxforums.com (http://www.lxforums.com). The folks over there are quite nice and friendly too!

I look forward to learning about the G8 and seeing what some of you modders are able to do to these cars!

marketing fail....

hopefully with SUVs and light duty pickups in the tank, the ST and WGN versions have markets now. and without a viable fun-to-drive and hot looking wagon available, it fills a desparately needed void in the market. With Subaru botching their wagon offerings, I'm hoping GM will have a change of heart. Besides, I still want something that hauls a$$, gets chicks, and will haul my surfboard to the beach. This wagon would solve all of that.

Sidenote on the ST though, when they did their research, did they see what happened to the Subaru Baja? Car-based trucks will be another hard-sell for a company that's bleeding $100 bills by the second

thats too bad...I'd love to have a SW for my business