Hi All,
I've been trolling for a while but haven't posted before. I subscribe to a daily automotive industry update called The Car Connection and I found a disturbing article posted here today:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=759&srccd=de20080205

The article's focus is on follow-on applications for the RWD platform that would be the new Impala, etc.

Here is a quote from the article that gives me shivers:
The Camaro will still be built, but higher-end V-8 versions likely will be priced higher than expected. As for other planned GM rear-drivers–a new Chevrolet Impala, Buick LaCrosse and the replacement for the Pontiac G8 due this spring–all have been dropped along with a new V-8 engine GM was contemplating building

Thoughts?

Tim

What the hell? Are we already discussing the replacement of a car that isn't out yet?!

As Lutz has been threatening, they are dropping the rear wheel drive platform.....again, all due to new CAFE standards of 35MPG, and the fact that FWD is more efficient (at least that is what they say)

What the article implies is that the next generation G8 (which I would not expect until 2013) may not be zeta (rwd). What it means is that the replacement of the G6 (current basis of Aura and Malibu that GM will not publicly admit to), due one year from now, might not be alpha (midsize rwd - think baby Caddy).

Yes, rwd Impala is DOA, but it will live on in fwd. The carrot for these vehicles may be hybrid and awd versions. Even the G6 needs its own hybrid version and awd could be designed in. Saab does it on the 9-3, which is similar in size.

Yes, to the dropping of a V8, that is true, but have you looked at how many V8s GM already has available that they don't use? I think they reconsidered teh expensiture of millions unnecessary to reinvent the small-block, just continue to make it better through boosting. They will again be looking to boost V6s as well.

The US is only one market for the G8/Commodore/Lumina. Cafe restrictions don't apply to other countries. From what I understand, Australia mainly utilizes rear wheel drive in this segment. Although there seems to be another "green" movement there as well. Holden remains to be the rear wheel drive design center of GM. Rear wheel drive technology will still need to be available for other markets, not to mention racing (but awd would work too). While the architecture may not be the same, I don't see them dropping the G8 before it has ever even reached the US for first ever sales. A decision like that would come down the road. Dropping a V8 engine design, sure maybe, but dropping the entire car, hardly.

I think you're right about the typo, achieftain. The author meant G6. Which is a pretty HUGE typo. Seriously, do people proofread this stuff before it comes out. Between this typo and their speculation about a V8 camaro (they didn't say base or fully optioned) costing as much as a vette, Car Connection credibility is starting to become questionable.

Does this V-8 decision apply to the GXP version of the G8 perhaps?

yeah, I posted this in this (http://www.g8board.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932) thread @ 8:39am. :p

The article I read on left lane doesn't put such a negative spin. It says the Lacrosse and Impala are done for. But the Camaro and G8 are ok because theyre too far along. I think someone is speculating a bit in their writing.

How they would know about a replacement for the G8 is beyond me. Until GM sends out more official information, I won't believe the whole of it. Just the pieces that are already common knowledge...

It makes more sense that they were talking about the G6 and the article just had a typo.

Simple put a torque monster of a diesel in them...

Simple put a torque monster of a diesel in them...

Don't get me started on that. The U.S. is so behind on diesel technology....not to mention their standards for emissions. There is no reason why we should not be driving around on 35-50 mpg diesel-powered vehicles right now.

Don't get me started on that. The U.S. is so behind on diesel technology....not to mention their standards for emissions. There is no reason why we should not be driving around on 35-50 mpg diesel-powered vehicles right now.

Well Holden has confimed that they will be producing a Diesel VE Commodore within 18 months.

Just wait, GM will figure out a way to produce RWD. ;)

Either way, I probably will own a G8 and my next car will be a cute little hybrid G6 or something LOL. I'd much rather use a fuel cell, but its $$$$$....

The US is only one market for the G8/Commodore/Lumina. Cafe restrictions don't apply to other countries. From what I understand, Australia mainly utilizes rear wheel drive in this segment. Although there seems to be another "green" movement there as well. Holden remains to be the rear wheel drive design center of GM. Rear wheel drive technology will still need to be available for other markets, not to mention racing (but awd would work too). While the architecture may not be the same, I don't see them dropping the G8 before it has ever even reached the US for first ever sales. A decision like that would come down the road. Dropping a V8 engine design, sure maybe, but dropping the entire car, hardly.

I think you're right about the typo, achieftain. The author meant G6. Which is a pretty HUGE typo. Seriously, do people proofread this stuff before it comes out. Between this typo and their speculation about a V8 camaro (they didn't say base or fully optioned) costing as much as a vette, Car Connection credibility is starting to become questionable.

The article was poorly worded. They were not saying the G8 would be dropped (or even the V8 in the G8 or the GXP), but the replacement model (think 4 - 5 year life cycle of which planning/design is happening now) is being dropped. It could be that it will not be Zeta (as achieftan speculates) but could still be RWD (although seeming unlikely). Reading further into the article, the thought was that RWD architecture costs an additional 1MPG vs. FWD. GM believes it will need everything on mileage from cars to offset larger vehicles. Small production quotas of RWD performance vehicles could happen, but would not be mainstream (still alive Vette, Camaro, Caddies, etc.). Performance/luxury cars can still pull a premium price to offset lower production numbers. The G8 could be interesting since it is a Holden. The Greenies in Oz may have more to do with future G8s than our Congress (if Holden gets hammered and moves from RWD, we may not have an affordable platform).

Someone at the Car Connection needs a refresher course in punctuation. It should read--"As for other planned GM rear-drivers–a new Chevrolet Impala, Buick LaCrosse and the replacement for the Pontiac G8, due this spring–all have been dropped along with a new V-8 engine GM was contemplating building." Just omitting a comma can create a whole bunch of worry. That was to imply that the G8 was a new model due out in the spring. It's replacement would be on sale many years from now. The V8 that got cancelled was the HF V8. It was supposed to be the replacement for the Northstar. It was to be based on the Direct Injection HF V6 in the CTS. It's a shame too. There have already been sightings of LaCrosse replacements seen at GM's testing grounds (under camo).

Just wait, GM will figure out a way to produce RWD. ;)

Either way, I probably will own a G8 and my next car will be a cute little hybrid G6 or something LOL. I'd much rather use a fuel cell, but its $$$$$....

For those of us that have been driving for a few years, uh like 40+, we have seen the takeover of FWD before. Was a time in the, uh '80s, when it seemed almost everything out there was FWD. As technologies improved, RWD came back into the market. We may just see this again to some degree.:oldfogey:

As far as hybrid, can you say VOLT?:boink:

Isn't the volt fwd too?

Isn't the volt fwd too?

VOLT FWD? AWD? RWD? Electric motors on all four? Front? I don't know that I've read where they are? General, you up on this?:eek2:

Motors on all wheels. ;) (and they did have to redesign the front of it recently because they put it in the tunnel and the drag coefficient was terrible. :o )

Wouldn't the unsprung weight of having motors in the wheels dramatically affect suspension/handling?

they're actually not all that heavy from what Ive been told. . . Lutz is driving one next month (in a malibu body). ;)

I think Chrysler started to FWD with the super dependable K car in the early 80's

Motors on all wheels. ;) (and they did have to redesign the front of it recently because they put it in the tunnel and the drag coefficient was terrible. :o )

All four interesting! Guess weight wise it's not much different than hanging a V8 with transaxle off it? I had seen the video on Maximum Bob's statement about the drag figures on the VOLT. Wonder if with the refocus of Pontiac cited in GMI article today, they will come up with a way to electrify some G8 type cars?:eek2:

I think Chrysler started to FWD with the super dependable K car in the early 80's

Ahhh the K cars. Who could forget that saving move? Great little car for the first 40K miles, then look out! I was fortunate enough to keep away from them, probably dumb luck, but had friends that had more than a little problem with them after the 40K mark on the odometer!:boink:

I guess the G8 will be my last Pontiac. So I'm getting a GXP.

Wonder if with the refocus of Pontiac cited in GMI article today, they will come up with a way to electrify some G8 type cars?:eek2:

In case anyone wants to read that article, here is the link: http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60465. If that Pontiac scenario occurs, it will be sad. I already have a major chip on my shoulder from when GM cancelled Oldsmobile.

I guess the G8 will be my last Pontiac. So I'm getting a GXP.

The ST may be my last "new"/late-model car.

If Pontiac goes, I won't buy Chevys...

But all of this is still part of the rumor mill. We're relatively certain as to what isn't going to make the cut. But as for what is really gonna happen, who knows. I certainly would rather see Pontiac die than become an onslaught of 4-bangers even WITH AWD.

Hey this will be my last strictly internal combustion power vehicle. If at all possible it will be a GXP. Next time around, I'll be on retirement row and it'll be whatever is easiest and best for the pocketbook! As much as I like the brand, it would be nice if Pontiac is still around, but, no crocodile tears here if it isn't. Times change, guess we might have to also.

I certainly would rather see Pontiac die than become an onslaught of 4-bangers even WITH AWD.

I totally agree.

Didn't we hear rumors about the demise of the Pontiac brand like 18 months to 2 years ago? And then came along the grand announcement about the G8.

Re: Death of Pontiac

"The report of my death was an exaggeration" Mark Twain

Fact is Pontiac in North America has more models and choices than does Buick. Buick would be the one to worry, except for the projected sales of brand in the world's next great market, China.

Didn't we hear rumors about the demise of the Pontiac brand like 18 months to 2 years ago? And then came along the grand announcement about the G8.

Yeah, this isn't the first time for this rumor, but that doesn't make me any less nervous whenever I hear it. I consider myself a huge Pontiac fan, and I really don't want to see Pontiac go the way of Oldsmobile, and many other "extinct makes." I am not blindly loyal though. If they put the Pontiac logo on junk, I won't buy it (I tried to like the Aztek, but couldn't). I hope it doesn't go beyond a rumor ever.

Fact is Pontiac in North America has more models and choices than does Buick. Buick would be the one to worry, except for the projected sales of brand in the world's next great market, China.

In the ultimate slap in the face, Buick in China has more models than Buick in the US. But, Buick is looked upon by GM top brass as a stronger brand. Why? Obviously, the Chinese sales. Plus, they are being sold in Canada (as is Pontiac). This push for new Buick product is further making Buick look like the golden child. Since Pontiac is a NA brand name, GM feels as if they aren't going to give up most of their customers because there are other GM models that are similar.

Who knows what GM is thinking right now. Nothing is official news. Most of what is being reported is based on 'inside sources' which aren't usually reliable enough to write a book based on their word. Whatever happens, clearly its something to write home about, but as to what exactly is gonna happen, we won't know until more official word comes out.

Likely, there will be some significant changes within GM. I'm just hoping it doesn't spell doom for Pontiac. But if it does.... *shrugs* dunno.

Its cost GM entirely too much money to "x" olds. They won't be doing that again.

Buick is *not* looked on as the golden child. But there is a desire to continue to move Caddy up to super luxury performance, and slot Buick back where it is supposed to be, in the low and mid luxury segment. The Super line is a good step in this direction but nobody notices them. Really REALLY nice cars.

I love the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP and have no issues with FWD performance vehicles. Especially with the advances in the ABS-based LSDs. RWD is alive and kicking, there will just be less of it in countries with draconian economy laws like the US. Hopefully Pontiac can keep a halo sports car and halo sedan with RWD or AWD, and the volume cars can be FWD. Since Camaro will probably go performance hybrid, that would work for the G8 or its replacement hopefully.

Electric wheel motors can be sprung or unspring (think halfshafts).

Its cost GM entirely too much money to "x" olds. They won't be doing that again.

They could have "merged" Olds with Saturn. Or taken Olds the Saturn way, way back when. Except a much better scenario re Saturn would have been simply to have started importing Opels again, for now that is what at least 2 Saturn models are, simply Opel built imports.

I have Grand Prix GT. The car has so much torque steer you never want to floor it.

We ain skeered of no torque steer.

I had a 300 lbft 280 hp GTP (modified) FWD. That car would incinerate the tires when you hit 2nd at WOT. You countersteer the same way you do with a high power RWD car when the back walks out. My 303 hp 5.3l Super is FWD. Almost no torque steer at all (you can see by turning off the TC). The ABS LSD does tug on the wheel, but it's amazing in that you have the acceleration of a LSD but NO understeer at WOT.

Don't forget Opel imports the Saturn built Sky as the new Opel GT.

Floor it on a bumpy road. The steering wheel jerks left then right then left. You ain't going to counter steer that. GTO did none of that.

Buick is *not* looked on as the golden child. But there is a desire to continue to move Caddy up to super luxury performance, and slot Buick back where it is supposed to be, in the low and mid luxury segment. The Super line is a good step in this direction but nobody notices them. Really REALLY nice cars.

I love the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP and have no issues with FWD performance vehicles. Especially with the advances in the ABS-based LSDs. RWD is alive and kicking, there will just be less of it in countries with draconian economy laws like the US. Hopefully Pontiac can keep a halo sports car and halo sedan with RWD or AWD, and the volume cars can be FWD. Since Camaro will probably go performance hybrid, that would work for the G8 or its replacement hopefully.

Buick is getting some preferential treatment from GM. And, considering that GM had no sales in China 4-5 years ago, 1 million for this year sounds profitable. That is why Buick wouldn't get cancelled. I personally have nothing against Buick. But, as for right now, they don't have anything that I would want. I want a performance vehicle. I see FWD as more economy & less sport. The Buick Super models (to me) are simply fast moving, inexpensive luxury cars. If GM had decided to import the Commodore as a Buick (I'd keep the name Commodore) & offer the same equipement & engine choices, I might actually buy one.

Buick would be the one to worry, except for the projected sales of brand in the world's next great market, China.

That doesn't mean they still can't shutter the brand here and continue to sell it in Asia. In fact Buick makes more business sense there than it does here now. The same goes with Pontiac, it doesn't do anything Chevrolet doesn't or can't do better today.

I like GM and their brands, but I also recognize that the more overlap and cannabalizing GM elimintes the better off they will be.