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Old 11-15-2012, 02:43 AM   #1
TheStevo
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Default Upgrading Speakers/Subs

Ok, so what I want to do is replace the speakers and subs while using all the factory amps and everything.

I plan on going with the JBL P662 Speakers Front and Rear
http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/pro...s.jsp?pid=P662

And for the subs im thinking about going with these. DO you guys think it will be too quiet since its 4ohms???
http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/pro...=GTO804_JBL_US

Basically what i want to do is get rid of the crap the G8's come with, without destroying the bank. I want good clean sound with tight bass response, Not a sub that will rattle windows...
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:54 AM   #2
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subscribed. interested to see how this plays out
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:51 AM   #3
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do not try to power aftermarket subs with the stock amp. It's actually more harmful to most subs to underpower than overpower. It's really not that difficult or expensive to add an amp, especially with the battery already in the trunk.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:02 PM   #4
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It's actually more harmful to most subs to underpower than overpower.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong one of the most wrong car audio myths in existence. Turning the volume down would blow a speaker then. And you, like most, may try the "Well, if he doesn't have enough power, he might unknowingly run his amp in clipping, and clipping destroys speakers" argument. But you see, the thing is, clipped signals are actually less bad for the speaker than had the signal not been clipped. You lose a SMALL amount of cooling for milliseconds at a time compared to the average power going up if the amp hadn't run out of voltage or power.

You can blow a speaker in clipping. It's not any easier than blowing a speaker without clipping. I'd say it's actually harder, because with clipping, it will start to sound worse as the distortion gets worse. Without clipping, it will probably sound clean until it's too late (though the "hot voice coil epoxy" smell they give off is a sign to turn it down right now)

The ONLY downside of using an amp that is not powerful enough is that it won't go loud enough (within a reasonable distortion level, anyway). Period.

I DO run aftermarket amps and I do recommend them for people who want good and loud sound. Just clearing up a misconception here.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:23 PM   #5
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But you see, the thing is, clipped signals are actually less bad for the speaker than had the signal not been clipped.
Clipping destroys tweeters because it creates tons of high-frequency harmonics. Not a problem on a subwoofer, though.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:59 AM   #6
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Wrong wrong wrong wrong one of the most wrong car audio myths in existence. Turning the volume down would blow a speaker then. And you, like most, may try the "Well, if he doesn't have enough power, he might unknowingly run his amp in clipping, and clipping destroys speakers" argument. But you see, the thing is, clipped signals are actually less bad for the speaker than had the signal not been clipped. You lose a SMALL amount of cooling for milliseconds at a time compared to the average power going up if the amp hadn't run out of voltage or power.

You can blow a speaker in clipping. It's not any easier than blowing a speaker without clipping. I'd say it's actually harder, because with clipping, it will start to sound worse as the distortion gets worse. Without clipping, it will probably sound clean until it's too late (though the "hot voice coil epoxy" smell they give off is a sign to turn it down right now)

The ONLY downside of using an amp that is not powerful enough is that it won't go loud enough (within a reasonable distortion level, anyway). Period.

I DO run aftermarket amps and I do recommend them for people who want good and loud sound. Just clearing up a misconception here.
listen i dont want to get into a pissing match with you. i'm not caraudio expert. i've built a few systems that work great though so i'm no n00b.

and i dont think we should take what crutchfield says as gospel, and i haven't bought anything from them in a while because their prices aren't competitive, but I would hope that their experts know some stuff about car audio.
http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/lea...amp_guide.html

Q: My new component speakers aren't living up to my expectations. What's wrong?
A: Here are a few tips to get your component speakers sounding their best:

Check the crossover setting many think that a flat setting for the tweeters is the way to go, but you'll often find that you need to attenuate the highs to counteract too much brightness
Are you feeding them enough power? Running most sets of components off your head unit is just not going to give them enough power to operate properly. Remember, underpowering your speakers is more dangerous than overpowering them.


Q: How much power do I need for my new speakers?
A: While manufacturers give a range of RMS, or continuous, power that will work for the speaker, getting towards the upper end of that power range or even exceeding it yields the best results. That said, a speaker with a lower RMS power range will be more suitable for powering with a factory or aftermarket stereo, while a higher RMS range will work better with an external amplifier.

When using an external amplifier, you should pick an amp whose power rating is in the upper end of your speaker's power range. For example, if a speaker is rated to handle up to 35 watts of RMS power, it will perform closer to optimum as your power source approaches delivery of 35 watts. It's better to overpower a speaker than to underpower it the distortion caused when you push a low-powered amp or receiver to its limit is much more likely to harm a speaker than too much power.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-cXDkiLp...ers_faq.html#3
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:04 AM   #7
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Crutchfield is in the business of selling you stuff. I AM a car audio expert, and I am here to teach YOU. I custom design my car systems and my home systems from scratch. What Crutchfield is saying is similar to what I said in that an amplifier with too little power for the volume the user wants may be driven into distortion/clipping by a user who doesn't listen for the distortion, or ignores it because they want volume. But what Crutchfield is wrong about is that clipping and distortion aren't that bad for speakers. You only lose cooling for milliseconds at a time, which does not overcome the fact that if your amplifier were able to handle the voltage (in this case we can say "loudness") you want, the power of the signal would be higher because those clipped signals would then continue to climb.

And I argue that without distortion, it is easier to blow your speakers, because you don't actually hear distortion. Hearing the distortion is a sign to turn it down. And even if clipping did murder speakers, if you drive the amp into clipping and leave it there, it's your own fault. In that case, the user really f**ked up, because the signs were there. If user would have had a bigger amp, he still would have blown his speakers. And he wouldn't have heard the distortion before it happened.

And it is much easier for the user to turn the gain up too high on a bigger amp. Too many people think of the gain knob as a volume knob like a percentage. But that's not what it is. Gain is all relative to the input signal.

If you want better information, go to www.diymobileaudio.com and www.bcae1.com. Don't listen to Crutchfield. I don't really recommend buying from Crutchfield either, btw. They are typically way overpriced.

Related DIYMA thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...rpowering.html



Oh, and I am not having a "pissing match" with you. I am here answering questions from other people, giving advice, and correcting the errors. Learn from it instead of being insulted by it. I wouldn't waste my time trying to correct you if my intent were to insult you.
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Last edited by dandragonrage; 11-16-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:12 PM   #8
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Oh, and I am not having a "pissing match" with you. I am here answering questions from other people, giving advice, and correcting the errors. Learn from it instead of being insulted by it. I wouldn't waste my time trying to correct you if my intent were to insult you.
never said you were, i just wanted you to know that i wasn't arguing. looks like we're on the same page, but i think we can both agree that you should always "right size" your amp for your subs.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:58 PM   #9
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In reference to the OP...

I went cheap on mine and Im pleased to say the least. I picked up 2 8" kickers for about $50 each and have them running off the stock amp. Works just perfectly fine. Long term wise? Who knows, ill most likely add a sub box in the trunk at some point and then run the deck speakers to that amp when the time comes.

Would I would suggest is to look into some sound deadening options. I got some sudo-dynamat I found on Amazon and it did a pretty good job reducing a lot of the deck rattle and a marginal amount of drone I get from my magnaflow catback.

Hope this helps.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:44 PM   #10
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Computer/electrical engineer here. It's funny, normally Dan and I go at it, but this time I gotta agree with him.

There's nothing inherently dangerous about running a 100W speaker at 50W, say. 100W is its maximum safe rating, not its required rating. Heck, you can power a 100W speaker with a 125W amp, but then you risk blowing the speaker by asking it to sink more power than it's rated for.

Clipping is also more about the amp than the speaker. It's when you saturate your amp and ask it to deliver more power than it actually can. Essentially you run out of headroom and everything gets cut off - "clipped" - at the maximum output of the amp. WhiteHotG8GT is spot on in that this has the effect of adding high-frequency harmonics to the signal.

That said, if the total power value of your signal is less than the rated power of the speaker, you should still be safe.

Dan, when you're talking about losing cooling for milliseconds, are you saying that the high frequency harmonics generated by a clipped signal still require that the speaker dissipate power, but without the cooling effect caused by the proper motion of the fundamental frequencies the speaker/amp is meant to be driving?
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:31 PM   #11
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Dan, when you're talking about losing cooling for milliseconds, are you saying that the high frequency harmonics generated by a clipped signal still require that the speaker dissipate power, but without the cooling effect caused by the proper motion of the fundamental frequencies the speaker/amp is meant to be driving?
Yes, exactly. I'm not saying to run DC through a speaker or that it could handle that - but I am saying that with clipping, you are not losing that much motion from the speaker, so the reduction in cooling would not amount to much. I suppose you could clip your amp REALLY badly and get some notable reduction in cooling but I would like to think very, very few people would actually do that.

And yes, the frequency distribution does change with clipping. It's even worse when you have an active crossover setup like me. I use speaker circuit breakers from Parts Express on my front tweeters actually, just in case, even though the only tweeters I've ever blown were on some old Technics home audio speakers that were crap to begin with. I've managed to blow more woofers and midranges than tweeters.`
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:43 AM   #12
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Ok, so what I want to do is replace the speakers and subs while using all the factory amps and everything.

I plan on going with the JBL P662 Speakers Front and Rear
http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/pro...s.jsp?pid=P662

And for the subs im thinking about going with these. DO you guys think it will be too quiet since its 4ohms???
http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/pro...=GTO804_JBL_US

Basically what i want to do is get rid of the crap the G8's come with, without destroying the bank. I want good clean sound with tight bass response, Not a sub that will rattle windows...
Well it seems like this thread has gotten off-topic a bit. I think the answer is clear though in terms of underpowering a speaker and that it isn't bad.

But onto your question. The main thing to be cautious about with the front speakers is the size. The stock fronts are mounted in a plastic mounting bracket which spaces it out from the door, angles it, and positions it correctly. So if your aftermarket speakers are too big for the mounting bracket, then you'll have to make your own and that is a pain to do. My buddy is running THESE in his car and was able to mount in the stock location with some minor trimming of the plastic piece. Mounting a tweeter in the stock location is a little more difficult, but it looks like you don't plan to go with component speakers. So you may want to actually disconnect the stock tweeter in the dash.

That sub looks like it should be OK, but you'll probably want to check to see if it will fit first. A lot of people use Kicker subs in the stock locations and like them quite a bit. You'll also want to deaden the rear deck. I suggest looking into second skin for deadener.

As for an amp. Running an aftermarket amp would clearly be better. It all comes down to if you think it is worth it for you. If you are unsure, then try using the stock system and see how you like it. If you think it is still lacking, then buy some aftermarket amps for the subs and speakers.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:49 PM   #13
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Computer/electrical engineer here. It's funny, normally Dan and I go at it, but this time I gotta agree with him.

There's nothing inherently dangerous about running a 100W speaker at 50W, say. 100W is its maximum safe rating, not its required rating. Heck, you can power a 100W speaker with a 125W amp, but then you risk blowing the speaker by asking it to sink more power than it's rated for.

Clipping is also more about the amp than the speaker. It's when you saturate your amp and ask it to deliver more power than it actually can. Essentially you run out of headroom and everything gets cut off - "clipped" - at the maximum output of the amp. WhiteHotG8GT is spot on in that this has the effect of adding high-frequency harmonics to the signal.

That said, if the total power value of your signal is less than the rated power of the speaker, you should still be safe.

Dan, when you're talking about losing cooling for milliseconds, are you saying that the high frequency harmonics generated by a clipped signal still require that the speaker dissipate power, but without the cooling effect caused by the proper motion of the fundamental frequencies the speaker/amp is meant to be driving?
the point wasn't slightly underpowering but sufficiently underpowering. I still hope you both agree not to use the puiny stock amp. That's like putting a civic motor in a 69 camaro.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:19 PM   #14
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the point wasn't slightly underpowering but sufficiently underpowering. I still hope you both agree not to use the puiny stock amp. That's like putting a civic motor in a 69 camaro.
Same thing holds true even when significantly underpowering a speaker. A 5W amp hooked up to a 100W speaker won't harm the speaker. It might cause the speaker to come to life just so it can laugh, however, and THAT might be a problem.

Replacing the speakers and using the stock amp also isn't a bad thing, so long as the speakers chosen are 2-Ohm to match the old pieces. The reason is that replacement speakers will still use more rigid cones and surround material, and support longer excursion than the cheap stock pieces. So they'd still be something of an improvement.

I do agree that the best result will be achieved with new speakers and a new amp, though. Heck, the BEST result would be using speakers large than 8" or going with something that didn't rely on rear deck placement. Just depends on the goal and budget.
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