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Old 11-12-2012, 07:45 PM   #1
brad02ss
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Default Finally did my first HPDE

Had my first track weekend, HPDE 1 (instructor rode along the whole time) with 4 20min sessions Saturday and Sunday. I had a blast. There was a lot to learn and its tough to put everything together consistently- when to brake, how much to brake, shifting, turn-in point, line, throttle application...a lot. Every now and then I hit a corner perfect and knew it. The car would just grip and go. Awesome feeling. The car was amazing.
Suspension and tires handled extremely well. Car had to be really pushed to lose control, ESP was off the whole time and I was driving all out. I had one spin, working on getting that video up.
The brakes did their job on the track but were toast when the weekend was done. I got fade once or twice the whole weekend and they were right back at 100% on the next corner. The DBA 4000 rotors were badly grooved and one side actually cracked. The Carbotech XP12 pads still had about 2/3 of their material left but had some pertrification/cracking. Not sure if the pads were too tough for the rotors, I didn't bed them good enough, or the rotors just couldn't handle going from a few thousand miles with Hawk HPS pads to the Carbotechs. Stock rotors and HPS pads in the rear were fine.
I was wanting more power watching a modded Z06 leave me on the straight but was thrilled to hang with him in the corners. And he was on NT01 tires.
I need a better solution for the brakes before adding power though.
All the people were great and I can't wait to do it again. My plan is twice a year on my budget. $300 for a weekend plus brakes and tires, it adds up. Would do it everyweekend if I could. On to some videos (sorry, may have some language) and a pic of my molten brakes-
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:58 PM   #2
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Cool videos! Man that last pic looks brutal on the brakes!
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:17 PM   #3
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Awesome pic of your brakes! You need some CTSV or SS Brembos for sure. I never got any fade out of mine during 5 sessions in 95 degree heat. I run Motul RBF 600 fluid. I'm using factory Brembo pads also. For $40 you cant beat them. Carbotechs are awesome pads, very hard on rotors but last a long time. Not worth the money For DD and occasional track use. It's a expensive addiction that's for sure.


Sent from my fresh lubed iPhone
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:19 PM   #4
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Damn love that last pic of the brakes.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:24 PM   #5
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Awesome video!!!
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:34 PM   #6
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LOL that pic of your rotors glowing red hot makes me relive my first HPDE. I had tremendous brake fade (boiled the fluid). I trashed the stock pads (never again...) and demolished my tires.

The second event was much better after changing to high temp brake fluid, track pads, and better tires. The brakes are the major deficiency on the G8 for a HPDE.

HPDE are a total blast, though. It was difficult, but fun!
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:43 PM   #7
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Very cool man, watching these gets me amped up, I am going to Road Atlanta this weekend, that was great you could hang with the Corvette thru the turns.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:26 PM   #8
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The brakes actually worked as well as I could expect any brakes to work with this amount of abuse. I'm also running ATE fluid. I just wish the rotors would have held up. The GXP/CTS-V swap has been in the back of mind but I don't want to spend the money and still have issues. I think track rotors and pads and street rotors and pads is the way to go- keep the rotors and pads together. A lot of guys at the track run Frozen Rotors so I'm planning to try those next time and if that doesn't work I'll do the Brembos.
Will they fit with my 18in wheels?
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:43 PM   #9
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Very nice! Did you shoot the vid with a phone?
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:54 PM   #10
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LOL...you had a case of the "red mist" going on in that last video Looks like you had a blast. One of the best mentors I ever had told me "sometimes, you have to slow down in order to go faster". What he meant was, simmer down, slow down the hands, look further ahead of the car, be the car instead of fight the car. He knew that corner exit speed is way more important than corner entry speed, and furthermore, going into a corner too fast kills your ability to come out of it fast. And pulling it off correctly coming out of a corner is where you really find out how to skull-**** people who haven't figured it out yet. Takes a looooooot of patience though.

As for your brakes, people put too much stock in fancy-dancy rotors. It's easy to put $1000 into the brakes when all they need is good pads and proper airflow. The fact is, your rotors only have two jobs: To absorb the heat of braking, and then to dissipate it away so they'll be ready for the next application. At the risk of oversimplifying, all brakes do is turn kinetic energy (motion) into thermal energy (heat). That's it, that's all. They're engines, in reverse. And the rotors do most of the work. If they don't have good capacity (e.g, mass) and good dissipation capability (e.g., airflow), they'll suffer. Looks like the XP12's were a good choice for pad, and the ATE was a good choice for fluid. You probably have enough rotor mass to do the job, if they have proper cooling. What I'd do next is figure out a way to duct air into the center of the rotor hat.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:10 PM   #11
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Video was shot with my iPhone 4.
I may have to try brake ducting, was thinking about that too. And yea, I pushed way too hard at times which slowed me down. Slow in, fast out is the way to go, I need to learn to have the focus and patience for that when behind the wheel.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:02 PM   #12
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I'm actually shocked that they were glowing that much during broad daylight. Are you sure they weren't dragging or something.

I agree with MFE. I'd just buy the cheaper rotors and replace them. A dude that does nothing but track days in his Z06 told me he uses the cheapest rotors and just replaces them when they go bad.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougHG8 View Post
Very nice! Did you shoot the vid with a phone?
That's Harry's Laptimer app for the iPhone. It's like 16 bucks and it overlays all that data on the video the phone takes. Best app on iTunes if you ask me.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:36 PM   #14
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Looks like a lot of fun and that rotor picture is bad as$! It's always nice to capture someone on video running off the track!
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:33 AM   #15
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Quote:
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That's Harry's Laptimer app for the iPhone. It's like 16 bucks and it overlays all that data on the video the phone takes. Best app on iTunes if you ask me.
Thanks; yeah I've got Harry's Laptimer Pro but I shoot my vid with an HD Sony camcorder and need to figure out how to get the data overlaid properly. There's a couple packages that can do it but I just haven't taken the time to buy one and learn it. Would love to hear from someone who's blazed that trail already!
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
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I'm actually shocked that they were glowing that much during broad daylight. Are you sure they weren't dragging or something.

I agree with MFE. I'd just buy the cheaper rotors and replace them. A dude that does nothing but track days in his Z06 told me he uses the cheapest rotors and just replaces them when they go bad.
No they weren't dragging, I was just beating the hell out of them. And yea, I may just have to plan on replacing rotors when I do this.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:18 AM   #17
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Sweet videos, love the glowing brakes.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:38 PM   #18
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My best lap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8LS...ature=youtu.be
And here's what happened at the end of the weekend, brain went to mush and my driving went to crap, resulting in a spin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Bna...ature=youtu.be
No damage, just a lot of dirt to clean up.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:02 PM   #19
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Looks like you had a great time! I'm sure you learned a ton over two days... and you've discovered the limits of your car (in the right place to do it).

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Originally Posted by brad02ss View Post
The brakes did their job on the track but were toast when the weekend was done. I got fade once or twice the whole weekend and they were right back at 100% on the next corner. The DBA 4000 rotors were badly grooved and one side actually cracked. The Carbotech XP12 pads still had about 2/3 of their material left but had some pertrification/cracking.
First comment... the track you're on has a really long/fast front straight, so will be murder on your brakes. Listening to your tires on your quickest lap, you're definitely working the brakes towards the limits of traction on several corners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFE View Post
One of the best mentors I ever had told me "sometimes, you have to slow down in order to go faster". What he meant was, simmer down, slow down the hands, look further ahead of the car, be the car instead of fight the car. He knew that corner exit speed is way more important than corner entry speed, and furthermore, going into a corner too fast kills your ability to come out of it fast.
That is extremely good advice!

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Originally Posted by brad02ss View Post
yea, I pushed way too hard at times which slowed me down. Slow in, fast out is the way to go, I need to learn to have the focus and patience for that when behind the wheel.
My first suggestion was going to be trying to get a bit smoother on/off the brakes. Starting to brake a little sooner really helps with the temps, without greatly effecting your times (often it will improve them as you can focus on getting a better line for corner exit onto the long straights). You don't need to use as much pressure (= lower temps) since you're braking over a longer distance. You also had several times when you "over-cooked-it" into the corner... getting on the brakes sooner should help with that too.

I know when I started with HPDE I was jumping on the brakes really hard, often times not getting slowed-down enough before turn-in, and was over-using equipment (sliding tires and smoking brakes = no fun). Being less aggressive with the braking made me faster and much easier on my equipment.

Also, while it's not a beginner technique, I'm sure the topic of "trail braking" will come-up soon. Being smoother with the brakes, longer, and trailing-off towards apex will help the brakes and should also help with the mid-corner understeer it sounded like you were having at times.

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I need a better solution for the brakes before adding power though.
Great plan! Most people I've talked to associate with HPDE say that power is always the LAST thing you want to add. There is much more time to be gained (on most tracks) in the corners with better tires/suspension/brakes. Adding more power just taxes the other components (aka. brakes) more at the end of the straights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFE View Post
Looks like the XP12's were a good choice for pad, and the ATE was a good choice for fluid. You probably have enough rotor mass to do the job, if they have proper cooling. What I'd do next is figure out a way to duct air into the center of the rotor hat.
Yup... this is what I was going to suggest as well. It sounds like you're not melting your pads (so don't need a higher temp pad) or boiling your fluid (needing a higher temp fluid), just over-heating the rotors.

There are a couple people who are working on brake cooling ducts, but there is not currently a "kit" available. The process doesn't seem to be too complicated though... I was looking at using our brake dust shields as a starting place (like this Camaro owner did), but haven't had time to play with it lately.

A larger rotor should help, but that's an expensive upgrade (especially to work inside most 18" wheels). I would also avoid drilled rotors, since they can be a place for cracks to propagate. Getting "cheaper" rotors that can be replaced more frequently is often the best solution for track use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brad02ss View Post
here's what happened at the end of the weekend, brain went to mush and my driving went to crap, resulting in a spin.
I've always been shocked at how mentally draining track days are. At one of my driving schools they always ran the last session at a slower pace... focusing on running the perfect lines. Not only was it a great way to solidify the proper line, we avoided pushing our brains beyond the limit and make mistakes.

Ok, after all that... when's the next track day in my area!?!

-Todd...
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:17 PM   #20
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Here's a totally awesome study guide for road-course noobs, and, well, frankly veterans too. It covers a lot of helpful ground, and the only thing better would be the Skip Barber/Carl Lopez book Going Faster. But this is free, god love 'em.

http://www.norcal-saac.org/ot/primer.pdf
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