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post #21 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 02:11 AM
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What we need is a new 1-series sized G8, the G7 with the direct injected LS3. So we have 3000 lb car, even better handling, 450bhp, 30+mpg for city, and all for 20k.

If GM can built this car, people will buy. I will.

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post #22 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 05:38 AM
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I don't agree on downsizing the car as the intent is too have a full-size 4-door family car that ginormous horsepower! There are plenty of families with 5 members that need the size. If I wanted a smaller 4-door, I would have bought a Cobalt SS.

What the G8 needs is a diet. Shed 500 lbs and it would rock!! Just like the Challenger. It can't compete until it loses weight. Anything over 4,000lbs needs to be an SUV/CUV.
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post #23 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 07:59 AM
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I'm glad to hear it. I see these 3-series BMW's running around and think about how cool a smaller version of my G8 would be, but it would still have to be V8-rear wheel drive. And that sounds like what the article is saying.
If they could keep the current size and bring over the smaller size, that would be a sweet lineup!

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post #24 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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A Cobalt is not a smaller G8, a G6 is larger than a G5 (Cobalt). But even that is not what they are talking about. First we'll skip past autoblog comments and go stright to GoAutoNews.
Quote:
Rear-drive Holden Commodore set to continue with new technology, smaller body

By DAVID HASSALL 31 March 2009


AUSTRALIANS will still be able to buy a traditional rear-wheel-drive Holden Commodore for at least the next decade, even though the General is turning to small-car production to survive as a local manufacturer.

Holden is already working on development of the next-generation Commodore, which is due in around 2013 and would be scheduled to run until at least 2020.

And the good news for enthusiasts is that it will again utilise the Zeta rear-drive platform developed at great cost for the current VE, which was launched less than three years ago in 2006.

The 2013 Commodore may be slightly smaller than VE, and almost certainly lighter, with a range of different engine options and new technology designed to make it more environmentally sound, including idle-stop and turbocharged four-cylinder and six-cylinder engines.

GM product chief Bob Lutz has said that, despite global economy mandates forcing GM to cancel programs in other countries, the rear-wheel-drive Commodore production will continue in Australia, including “the next-generation version”.

In the meantime, the VE Series II is set to arrive in early 2010 with significant new technologies.

Holden has already confirmed that all its engines will be E85 ethanol-compatible by 2010 and is also set to introduce a dedicated LPG Commodore with breakthrough liquid-injection technology that promises petrol-matching power and economy.

Left: Cadillac's direct-injection 3.0-litre V6.

Direct-injection is also on the cards for the standard 3.6-litre V6 petrol engine, which could improve both power and economy.

GM already produces a direct-injection version of this engine for Cadillac, which produces 225kW compared with the Commodore’s current 195kW, as well as an E85-compatible 3.0-litre version that matches the current Commodore V6 for power but has better economy.

The search for efficiency will also ultimately lead to Holden offering smaller turbocharged engines some time in the future. It already builds a 2.8-litre turbocharged V6 engine for Saab, and is understood to be testing a 2.0-litre four-cylinder turbo in a VE Commodore.

These programs could be at the expense of the expected hybrid and diesel-powered Commodore variants.

GM Holden managing director and chairman Mark Reuss has confirmed that the Commodore has a long-term future and work continues on the next-generation model.

Mr Reuss also said that a rear-drive platform is important for the Commodore, which has been Australia’s top-selling car for the past 13 years.

“The rear-wheel drive platform is sort of what Holden has been known for here and we expect that to continue,” said Mr Reuss.

“There’s still a great market for it here … so, as long as our customers keep telling us they want to buy our car, we’ll produce it.

“(A rear-drive platform) is something we’ve invested in already and it’s something I think we can just continue to refine and improve and bring it to different levels of efficiency. That’s what we’re focusing on.”

Former GM Holden director and product planning chief Ian McCleave, in an interview with Wheels magazine, has also pointed to a likely refinement of the existing platform and a downscaling to reduce weight.

“With Commodore, there is opportunity to trim the car down, take some width and mass out … without losing the packaging efficiency and attributes that rear-wheel drive brings, which is handling, ride and styling proportions,” said Mr McCleave.

Mr McCleave said he could see the large and medium segment cars morphing, with the only distinction being front-wheel drive and rear-wheel drive. Ford is already blurring the edges with its similar-looking Falcon and Mondeo.

Although Holden’s embattled parent company has been forced to retreat from new global RWD large cars due largely to increasingly severe fuel economy and emissions standards, reports from the US suggest that the Zeta platform is safe there until at least 2016, with the Australian-developed Camaro likely to run to 2020.

GM engineers are said to be working on weight reduction and efficiency improvements, such as better aero and a standard six-speed automatic transmission, on all Zeta-based vehicles to keep the platform viable.
Zeta goes on a diet, maybe loses an inch in exterior dimensions along with 500#. And more aerodynamic - I can live with that. At that point, a full-size 3500# RWD Zeta will make a strong business case when put up against a 4000# Epsilon II such as the Buick LaCrosse.

DI V6 with 6-speed auto in a lighter rwd structure. Too bad it probably will never hit North America.
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post #25 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by phoenixitc View Post
What the G8 needs is a diet. Shed 500 lbs and it would rock!! Just like the Challenger. It can't compete until it loses weight. Anything over 4,000lbs needs to be an SUV/CUV.
A 500 lb diet would probably drive the price up at least another $10k assuming no loss of HP, handling, comfort, or safety. Also, GM can't afford the money to retool for exotic materials right now.

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post #26 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 08:23 AM
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A Cobalt is not a smaller G8, a G6 is larger than a G5 (Cobalt). But even that is not what they are talking about. First we'll skip past autoblog comments and go stright to GoAutoNews.

Zeta goes on a diet, maybe loses an inch in exterior dimensions along with 500#. And more aerodynamic - I can live with that. At that point, a full-size 3500# RWD Zeta will make a strong business case when put up against a 4000# Epsilon II such as the Buick LaCrosse.

DI V6 with 6-speed auto in a lighter rwd structure. Too bad it probably will never hit North America.
I am fully aware of what a Cobalt and G6 are

I was merely referring to the most potent little 4banger that would have the performance required for me to purchase a smaller sized GM. I'd get the Cobalt, upgrade to 290hp and go after a few Mustangs and RTs.

Last edited by phoenixitc; 04-02-2009 at 08:25 AM.
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post #27 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 12:06 PM
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the existing Zeta platform...will carry on for at least another decade.
I like this.

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post #28 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 12:15 PM
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G3 GXP!!!!!!!!!!! I THOUGHT APRIL FOOLS DAY WAS THE 1st of April!
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post #29 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 02:42 PM
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A slight diet is not enough. We need it to be lighter by about 1000 lbs, but with better handling, and more power. It should weigh no more than a light Corvette. That is why I want a smaller G7 but with an LS3. It should be a four seater and can be 2 or 4 door.

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post #30 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixitc View Post
I don't agree on downsizing the car as the intent is too have a full-size 4-door family car that ginormous horsepower! There are plenty of families with 5 members that need the size. If I wanted a smaller 4-door, I would have bought a Cobalt SS.

What the G8 needs is a diet. Shed 500 lbs and it would rock!! Just like the Challenger. It can't compete until it loses weight. Anything over 4,000lbs needs to be an SUV/CUV.
...........................Pontiac G6 Sedan:...Pontiac G8 Sedan:...Chevy Cobalt Sedan:

Length-.................189"......................196.1". ...................180.5"
Wheelbase- ...........112"......................115"......... ..............103"
Height- .................57.1".....................57.7".. ....................57.1"
Width- ..................70.6".....................74.8". .....................67.9"
Curb Weight-.......... ~3500lbs...............3995lbs...................3 216lbs
Front Leg Room- ......42.2"....................42.2".............. ........42"
Rear Leg Room- .......37.6".....................39.4"............ ..........33.7"
Front Head Room- ....39".......................38.7"............... .......38.7"
Rear Head Room- .....36.6".....................38"................ .........37.7"
Passenger Volume- ...96cu. ft.................124cu. ft.................87cu. ft.

There's a huge difference in size from the G8 to the Cobalt. There's even a big difference in size between a G8 and a G6. The G8 can lose an inch of wheelbase, a couple inches of overhangs and still be significantly bigger than a G6...much less a Cobalt.

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Last edited by lonewolfz28; 04-02-2009 at 08:08 PM. Reason: formatting
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post #31 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ronk View Post
A slight diet is not enough. We need it to be lighter by about 1000 lbs, but with better handling, and more power. It should weigh no more than a light Corvette. That is why I want a smaller G7 but with an LS3. It should be a four seater and can be 2 or 4 door.
Not going to happen without getting extremely expensive and/or much smaller. Physics is a beyotch.

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post #32 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 08:29 PM
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All I can say is this. I'm glad that pontiac cut the suv from the brand. Pontiac's motto has been driving excitement and they haven't really delivered per se. If it was me and I was running the show the g5 would be at a bare minumum turbo. The cobalt has a ss version with the turbo why in the heck doesn't the pontiac version. A higher end version would be v6 turbo. The standard for the G6 would be a turbo'ed version or supercharged and the G6 would look more like and handle more like the G8. I mean for real if they are making a 300 horsepower v6 for the camaro why not for the pontiac. Pontiac use to stand for performance and It should go back to that motto. The company should make it more of a specialty brand. They already have to cut production so limit the sales to a managable number and make cars that people would love to drive.
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post #33 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 09:15 PM
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All this talk of what to do with the G3, G5, and G6 will be a moot point once the only cars sold by Pontiac are the G8 trio and the Vibe! Remember, all the GM sources are talking about only two offerings from Pontiac after the restructuring. G8 is relatively new, only in its second year, and the Vibe is part of a joint deal with Toyota under a long term contract. So unless they've been lying to us, the only way anything other than these two will be sold by Pontiac is if GM starts making some major $$, can repay the loans, and tell the Obama guys to take a hike!
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post #34 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 08:31 AM
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All this talk of what to do with the G3, G5, and G6 will be a moot point once the only cars sold by Pontiac are the G8 trio and the Vibe! Remember, all the GM sources are talking about only two offerings from Pontiac after the restructuring. G8 is relatively new, only in its second year, and the Vibe is part of a joint deal with Toyota under a long term contract. So unless they've been lying to us, the only way anything other than these two will be sold by Pontiac is if GM starts making some major $$, can repay the loans, and tell the Obama guys to take a hike!
This is very true
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post #35 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 05:15 PM
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Another factor to consider is profitability. The G3, G5, G6, and Solstice are all unprofitable, so it is very unlikely that they will continue.
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post #36 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-06-2009, 07:12 AM
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Another factor to consider is profitability. The G3, G5, G6, and Solstice are all unprofitable, so it is very unlikely that they will continue.
I don't doubt this but why is the G6 unprofitable? They are all over the place around here.

Yes, it's another fwd rental car type vehicle with a cheap rubbermaid plastic interior but the costs should be fairly low to build it. Or are all the other costs (healthcare, retirees, union contracts, etc.) driving up the cost compared to a Camry or Accord, thus the cheaper materials and build?

Plus, why can't true American cars have a better engine note? Step on the gas of a Camry or Accord (4 or V6) and they sound solid and high-quality. Virtually all American cars' smaller engines sound rough and cheap. Is it the exhaust and/or intake plumbing that gives them such a cheap sound?
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post #37 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 12:25 AM
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Plus, why can't true American cars have a better engine note? Step on the gas of a Camry or Accord (4 or V6) and they sound solid and high-quality. Virtually all American cars' smaller engines sound rough and cheap. Is it the exhaust and/or intake plumbing that gives them such a cheap sound?
Kinda like how nice V8s sound in American cars? Just proof that if you build the same thing long enough, you will eventually learn how to do it REAL WELL!
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post #38 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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I don't doubt this but why is the G6 unprofitable? They are all over the place around here.

Yes, it's another fwd rental car type vehicle with a cheap rubbermaid plastic interior but the costs should be fairly low to build it. Or are all the other costs (healthcare, retirees, union contracts, etc.) driving up the cost compared to a Camry or Accord, thus the cheaper materials and build?
BINGO, we have a winner, give that man a prize! The figure has been floating around and I do not recall exactly but it is something like $1500 per car more in legacy costs to GM than Toyota, that's not even comparing direct labor or production. Material cost differences are nil.
Quote:
Plus, why can't true American cars have a better engine note? Step on the gas of a Camry or Accord (4 or V6) and they sound solid and high-quality. Virtually all American cars' smaller engines sound rough and cheap. Is it the exhaust and/or intake plumbing that gives them such a cheap sound?
Obviously you've never been up close and personal with a quad-tip s/c 3800 in a 1997-2003 W-body Or one of my all-time faves, a 1984 6000STE with factory tuned exhaust - they really did sound like a boxer-6 from Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen
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post #39 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-11-2009, 09:27 PM
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Trouble is that a weight diet will either compromise cost, reliability and/or strength. I'd go for a strong, tough car that is a great base for a performance vehicle and won't fall apart on rough roads any day... as long as GM does not lose the plot in the looks department.

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post #40 of 166 (permalink) Old 04-11-2009, 09:49 PM
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I love my G8, really love it. But it isn't a car that the government and market will produce in large numbers in the long term. A few things are going to change.

Weight: all cars from generation from now on are going to get lighter. Sometimes a lot sometimes just a little. But every pound costs fuel so better steel, aluminum bits, and some downsizing are inevitable. They will probably make suspension out of aluminum, and put some high strength steel in the future models.

Motors: 6 liters of V8 are fun - but the MPG is going to make the business model for this car tougher and tougher. I really think that what is happening at GM with the Volt is going to be the next generation of a car the skews the CAFE numbers. It could be interpreted as a 100 mpg car and if it is... 35 mpg seems possible. I think that 5 liters will be as big an engine as is mass produced and that will be a niche model like the GXP.

A base engine in this car should be something along the lines of a 2.5l turbo v6. 250 hp is plenty for the masses. The 2.0L turbo is probably too peaky for most people to like in a G8 but if it were the base engine... I bet they'd have sold more this year.

Direct injection: assuming the G8 is on sale next year I've heard the Camaro RS drivetrain is going into the G8. Hopefully that would boost MPG and make the G8 a bit more of a poor man's Caddy.

In the meantime, I am enjoying what will probably be looked back on as the last of the good old days in cars. The G8 is a beast.
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