Hybrid G8 future in doubt, E85 more certain - Pontiac G8 Forum: G8 Forums - G8Board.com
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hybrid G8 future in doubt, E85 more certain

What happens to Commodore may be reflected in versions we see here.

From the 7/16 issue of GoAutoNews
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoAutoNews
Electric Commodore no longer a certainty as Holden boss questions hybrid tech


By JAMES STANFORD
GM HOLDEN chairman and managing
director Mark Reuss has cast doubt over the
hybrid Commodore program, indicating
last week that the petrol-electric large car in
development might not be brought to market.
Responding to questions at the release of
a CSIRO report into future fuels last Friday,
Mr Reuss also questioned the viability of
hybrid technology.
The position contradicts GM Asia Pacifi c
president Nick Reilly who told GoAuto
and other Australian media in May that
the Commodore would be “one of the fi rst
hybrids you see” with a timeframe of “a
couple of years”.
However, Mr Reuss made it clear that
Holden’s priority was to develop dedicated-
LPG technology, as well as leading with
cars that run on E85 ethanol fuel (85 per
cent ethanol, 15 per cent petrol).
When asked specifi cally about a hybrid
Commodore, Mr Reuss indicated the car
was far from a production certainty.
“We aren’t going to provide a solution, we
are going to provide many solutions here,”
he said. “One of the many solutions may or
may not be a hybrid Commodore.”
Mr Reuss went on to indicate that there
were a lot of strong arguments against
building a hybrid Commodore.
“There are probably a lot of things that I
don’t have time, in answering this question,
to go into in terms of the price of a hybrid
for the average person anywhere in the
world and the benefi t of that price and cost
and payback on fuel,” he said.
“The older technologies don’t pay back
(but) some of the newer technologies do.”
Mr Reuss indicated that Holden was more
interested in introducing more affordable
technology that “everyone has access to”
and went on to talk about the development
of a single-fuel LPG Commodore.
Just weeks after the announcement that
Toyota would produce a Camry Hybrid
in Australia with the aid of $35 million
federal government funding and a similar
amount from the Victorian government, Mr
Reuss said accessible technology such as
dedicated-LPG engines would ultimately
benefi t more people than hybrids, despite
being less of a hot topic for politicians and
the mainstream media.
“I think it is easy for the media and
politicians all over the world to talk about
hybrids because it has become something
that is understandable,” Mr Reuss said. “A
gas (petrol) electric vehicle is a sexy way
to provide better fuel economy and in some
cases it does and some cases it doesn’t.”
Mr Reuss believes a dedicated-LPG
V6, which is currently being developed
by Holden, will deliver more signifi cant
savings. “I’ll give you an example,” he said.
“On an LPG basis over a year’s use, we can
produce an LPG Commodore that is about
$2000 less on an operational basis than a
four-cylinder smaller-car segment vehicle,
so that is a very compelling argument for
anybody including myself, my three kids
and my wife. So these are the things that we
really need to be cognisant of.”
Perhaps pre-empting a forthcoming
advertising campaign, Mr Reuss added that
an LPG Commodore was “an Australian
solution for an Australian car”.
Related article E85 more certain
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoAutoNews
GMH chief puts ethanol
on agenda with promise
of E85 Commodore
By JAMES STANFORD
GM HOLDEN will introduce a Commodore
that can run on E85 ethanol well before the
eco-oriented bio-fuel is widely available in
Australia.
Using a “build it and they will come”
approach, GM Holden managing director
Mark Reuss said Holden had a responsibility
to take a lead on bio-fuels.
Its premium Saab division has already
introduced E85-capable models, which run
on a blend of 85 per cent ethanol and 15 per
cent petrol, despite just one E85 fuel pump
being available in Australia.
This is offered through United Petroleum
in Sydney.
Speaking at the release of a CSIRO
report into future fuels last week, Mr Reuss
confi rmed Holden would introduce an E85
Commodore before an ethanol infrastructure
was in place.
“The answer is yes. We will lead with
equipment on vehicles before the supply is
readily available,” Mr Reuss said.
“We only have E10 supply available right
now, but we design our ethanol-capable cars
up to E85 and you can expect to see that
here from Holden and GM in Australia.”
Mr Reuss did not provide a timetable for
the introduction of an E85 Commodore, but
when asked how long it could take all cars to
change to alternative fuels he replied: “Within
GM we can do that in the next two years.”
While it might seem strange that Holden
would introduce cost into its vehicles when
the Australian ethanol industry is embryonic,
and it might be decades before E85 fuel is
widely available, Mr Reuss said Holden felt
compelled to act.
He pointed to the US, where GM had
introduced E85-capable vehicles before
much of the fuel was available.
“This becomes almost a chicken-and-egg
scenario and we intend to do the same thing
in Australia, which is lead with equipment on
the car, driving both the societal awareness
of renewable fuels and the application of
the supply base for them,” Mr Reuss said.
“The benefi ts of ethanol are huge, it is a
comparatively clean-burning renewable fuel
and it requires a very small cost to modify
existing technology.”
“I think it is our responsibility as an auto
industry and as a company to lead this,” he
said. “If we wait until we have $8 a litre
gasoline and we wait until bad things happen
to respond, that is a pretty poor place to be.
We owe the society, the economy and our
customers a lot more than that as an industry
and a company.”
Holden is also currently developing
a dedicated-LPG engine, which along
with E85 ethanol could reduce Australian
dependency on imported oil and reduce fuel
bills without forcing large-car customers to
switch to a smaller vehicle.
“I don’t know anyone who decides
that they want to have the smallest car
available,” Mr Reuss said. “They might not
have any option because of the alternatives
that we as an industry have provided from a
technology standpoint.”
GM’s promotion of E85 has triggered
warnings of escalating food prices as arable
land used for food crops is converted to
crops used for ethanol.
However, the company has pointed to
technology being developed that would
see ethanol produced using waste products
rather than food crops.
According to Biofuels Association of
Australia chief executive Bruce Harrison,
who took part in the CSIRO study, most of
Australia’s ethanol is currently produced
from waste starch and molasses. He added
that work was being done to advance other
methods of ethanol production.
“In Australia, one of my members is
currently growing algae (to make ethanol)
and the commercialisation process has begun
down here in Victoria,” Mr Harrison said.
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 09:40 PM
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I think they think this will help soon...what loons...drill here now and we will take the e85 when it cheaper (based on work output/mpg) and greener than oil/gas.....shoot, think I will just get a fresh horse and head to the hills...
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 10:21 PM
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I wouldn't bought a hybrid model. If I wanted a hybrid I'd buy a car specifically designed to be one in the first place.
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-16-2008, 04:53 AM
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A dedicated LPG/Propane model will the easy fix for Holden...

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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-16-2008, 06:08 AM Thread Starter
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...but not for US, unless we dare to improve the on-road availabilty of refill (expanded infrastructure, customers willing to stay longer at station for a fillup or to employ existing exchangable bottles, either what fits your gas grill or what industrial forklifts use. But then, what do you do when you get to a tunnel?(which like the CBBT restricts transport of filled propane tanks on rv's)
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-16-2008, 07:48 AM
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Well, the reason is pretty clear. The Australian government was going to provide assistance to one of the companies to produce a hybrid vehicle for them, looks like Holden lost out on that money...

Just weeks after the announcement that
Toyota would produce a Camry Hybrid
in Australia with the aid of $35 million
federal government funding and a similar
amount from the Victorian government


Without that money, its not worth developing one for the Aus market. It would take GM worldwide's commitment and funding at this point to do it and the certainty of the Holden platform in the US is still iffy.
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-16-2008, 07:48 AM
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If they do an E85 model I bet it'll be on the V6 only. AFAIK GM doesn't have any E85 V8's & I doubt they'll put the effort into one during this crisis.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-16-2008, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zabolots View Post
If they do an E85 model I bet it'll be on the V6 only. AFAIK GM doesn't have any E85 V8's & I doubt they'll put the effort into one during this crisis.
Ummm... wow.

Our sister motor the 5.3 in the siverado etc etc etc is e85 compatible. There really is no development in an e85 motor. You just make sure you have changed over a few seals and lines and that you have a set of e85 tables in the ecu. Cost of the conversion is litterally a few dozen dollars per vehicle if done from the OE, and a couple of hundd if you have on of the engines that can be set up fo e85 and you just do not have those parts in yours.

Go here and click on the "See 2008 FlexFuel Vehicle Details" link

Last edited by p71; 07-16-2008 at 08:06 AM.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-16-2008, 10:51 AM
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Holden really needs a smaller car. It's a shame they did not go ahead and build the stunning Torana concept they debuted a few years ago. It would have arrived just in time for higher petrol prices. It would have been a fine export to the US too.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-16-2008, 03:11 PM
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I think they would be better off bulding the hybrid. E85 isnt a long term answer to the world oil crisis, or the USAs' answer to become self dependent for energy.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-17-2008, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliWagon31 View Post
E85 isnt a long term answer to the world oil crisis, or the USAs' answer to become self dependent for energy.
I disagree. E85 could put a significant dent in our dependence on foreign oil IF:

a) cellulosic comes online (corn-based ethanol is a joke) and meets it's promises
b) infrastructure upgrades are made to handle E85 (pipelines, tanks, pumps, etc)

I, for one, would welcome a full-blown national energy policy centered around E85 but I doubt that will happen now that the federal government is going bankrupt bailing out all their financial cronies.
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-17-2008, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zabolots View Post
If they do an E85 model I bet it'll be on the V6 only. AFAIK GM doesn't have any E85 V8's & I doubt they'll put the effort into one during this crisis.
Having several E85 capable V8's makes my job a lot more complicated: so many RPO's to remember.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zabolots View Post
I disagree. E85 could put a significant dent in our dependence on foreign oil IF:

a) cellulosic comes online (corn-based ethanol is a joke) and meets it's promises
b) infrastructure upgrades are made to handle E85 (pipelines, tanks, pumps, etc)

I, for one, would welcome a full-blown national energy policy centered around E85 but I doubt that will happen now that the federal government is going bankrupt bailing out all their financial cronies.
Ya, corn ethanol really sucks in that its horribly inefficient. With cellulosic being 3 times more efficient than gasoline, we could really ween ourselves off foreign oil.
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 12:40 PM
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The best of both world would be a hybrid that was and E85 car also.

Feck the corn, people need to stop using the word corn. Pond scum, grass, even human waste is a better solution.

But if the hybrid is like the Chevy Malibu, then whats the sense. GM needs a better electric/gas engine.

I have put a few bucks in some ethanol companies that use cellulose and not food. Don't take food off of people's plates and give them 50 cent gas. "Build it, and they will come"

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 06:24 PM
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In doubt? Hey, look at my avatar!
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
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In doubt? Hey, look at my avatar!
Boy, talk about digging up an OLD thread! OK, I'll bite. How is your G8 a hybrid? What is different about its propulsion that makes it a hybrid?
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBBBGXP View Post
Boy, talk about digging up an OLD thread! OK, I'll bite. How is your G8 a hybrid? What is different about its propulsion that makes it a hybrid?
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 10:48 PM
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So a coffee grinder is the solution to the world's energy woes -- neat.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-12-2009, 05:25 PM
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So we all should have had stock in the "Back to the Future" movies, cause thier idea of propulsion was right? But wasn't the power for their car run thru a food processor?
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-13-2009, 12:24 AM
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Ethanol ROCKS for performance. It is 105 octane, which means we can run 11:1 dynamic compression (13-14:1 static compression) on NA cars, and double the boost on forced induction cars over pump gas without major engine mods. So what if mileage sucks? Have you seen the price of race gas lately?

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