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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-19-2019, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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CarboTech pads

There have been at least a couple of threads here where the topic of pad options that included mention of what is offered by CarboTech. I reached out to CT, and wanted to pass along some information that may be useful in some way.

I've posted similar information on the SS Forum and will post on the PPV (New Caprice) Forum. I've edited some information to fit maximum post length limits here.

G8 Forum thread references (there may be others):

Police brake pads, stock brakes <click to view

Brembo 345mm front brakes - new option <click to view

I'm not here to serve as a clearing house, so in regards to any additional specific questions I must defer and suggest direct contact with the company--I found them quite responsive and receptive to my inquiries.

Please note: I am not endorsing nor have I ever used any CarboTech products, to be clear.

This series of exchanges all took place between May 10 (Friday) when I submitted my original e-mail, and the rest of the responses were on May 13.

Subject: several questions

Wanted to confirm cost for the 1521 spec pads for CT1351 FMSI/caliper fitment as used on 2008 Pontiac G8. Some comments I've read suggest they cost $300+....ouch!!!

Also, the lookup for Brembo pads (CT1001 & CT1001A) suggests there's a different spec for Cadillac CTS-V (2004-2007) and Pontiac G8 GXP (2009). OEM pads are listed as the same, rotors are the same thickness, but the CT listing indicates that CT1001A is about 0.040" thicker (pad material or pad plate?). What is correct for each application?

CT Response:
Hey Bill,

The CT1351-1521 retail for $208. We do offer club and forum discounts if you buy directly from us. We would have to make these, 2-3 days to have them ready to ship.

My listings show the same 4 pot Brembo, the CT1001 for both the CTS-V (2004 edition, the newer CTS-V has a 6 piston caliper) and the GXP. If you're looking for the 1521 in that pad shape, they retail for $170 and are in stock.

Do you need any rear pads?

Mike Jr.

Subject: Re: several questions

Mike, thanks so much for the reply--my objective was to enlighten some folks on the G8 Forum--they were citing pad costs (for 1351-1521) of over $300. Knowledge is power, so this might get some owners to re-think their buying decisions and give CT a try.

In addition to the G8, the common platform communities (which I frequent and post responses to brake questions) that might be inclined to give CT pads a try include:

11-17 Chevy Caprice PPV - D1404 and D1352

14-17 Chevy SS - D1001 (officially D1474A, which is a newer variant that CT does not offer) and either D1352 (PBR) or D1053 (Brembo) rear

NOTE: I assume CT does not consider any need to provide a D1474 pad (with dampers), but COULD make them with customer-supplied cores

The question about Brembo was to look at clarifying info I found posted in the CT website, and to let everyone know what it does cost to use your products, which are very popular with the auto-x/track day crowd. Brembo upgrades are common & popular on the Zeta sedans (G8 & Caprice PPV), and pad options are always evolving, so I wanted to be sure the CT info was accurate.

I'll monitor the Forums and make clear that the CarboTech option is not as costly, for the ROI, as many may assume. I may have to try some myself!

CT Response:
That's great and greatly appreciated. The forums do often times have a lot of bad or wrong information. There are also "dealers" who buy from our WD's and mark things up significantly and that pricing gets out there but isn't retail. Please also inform them that the website does have a way to see retail pricing so people will know if they are getting price gauged by someone.

www.ctbrakes.com

That 4 pot Brembo, the CT1001, is one of the most popular pad shapes we sell. The C7 Stingray and then Z51 packages put us behind the 8 ball throughout 2014 and 2015 when they started using it. We could not keep them in stock on our 1521 compound. It was already on the earlier version of the CTS-V, Camaro SS as you stated, Ford put it on some of their Mustangs and it had already been on the Mitsubishi EVO and Subaru WRX STi. The C7 just put it over the top. We tend to keep 20-40 sets of those in 1521 on the shelves even today. We actually had several EVO, STi and CTS-V customers buying the kits or parts through Chevy because the Camaro version was cheaper than the others, which is funny, because they are all the same outside of the rotor size.

We also stock the 6 pot iron rotor version for them all (CTS-V, C7 and Camaro), the CT1405 front and CT1718 rear. Some of the Camaro's and the CTS-V use the CT1053 in the rear, which we also stock. If anyone with the Carbon Ceramic rotors would like a nice change for the street or track, our 1521 works great with those rotors and on the track the XP8, XP10 and XP12 are a great way to go too. CT1395 front and CXT1165ZR rear.

Thanks again and please let me know if we can help you with anything else, including ordering.

Subject: Re: several questions

Mike,

So it's "problem solved" for the folks that think the pad dampers are essential! Brembo & GM have worked very diligently to keep customers happy....the comment about differences in OEM pad prices, in the case of the Chevy SS, is that many parts or specs for that car, as well as G8 & Caprice PPV, originated in Australia, where those cars were built. So, even though Camaro Brembo pads (as in D1474) are fit/form/function compatible, somehow the GM purchasing process let the Australian-sourced OEM part numbers remain, and customers or dealers maintaining inventory were having to spend much more to offer/purchase the production service pads for that application.

All of the OEM Brembo pads for these vehicles (CTS-V, G8 GXP, Camaro SS, SS sedan and even the PPV D1404 pad) use Ferodo HP1000 friction material, which has it's own issues--which seem to be at least part of the reason for the pad damper "fix" that started in about 2009 with the Camaro. There have been multiple iterations of brake squeal bulletins issued by GM since the Chevy SS sedan first came along in 2014. The primary approach has been to slather on the Brembo-spec copper paste (a Dow/Moly product formulation) in a very strategic manner. Done correctly it seems to help suppress the squeal issue, but in most cases noise tends to return after a time, and many owners can't seem to accept that as the nature of higher-performance brakes. Some resort to ceramics, or something claiming to be noise free, then complain the brakes don't work as well as with the OE pads...well DUH!

Anyway, it's good to know that CT1474 is the small damper variant, for those that are worried about not running the dampers in a street-only situation. And I'll add that it's interesting to me that both the CTS-V and G8 GXP used D1001 pads, and I've not noted that there was an issue with brake squeal on either of these applications, with both using the same caliper & rotor as the SS sedan, which, unlike the earlier models (with no dampers) caused havoc for GM service. I can't figured what could have changed....a real curiosity.

NOTE: The 345mm PPV rotor & Alpha Brembo caliper combination still uses the same pads--production is the D1474 pad which was never called out as fitment for G8 GXP, but the Alpha caliper "spec" is with D1474, even though D1001 will also fit the Alpha caliper.

CT response:
The noise problem is due to the friction material. All of the shims, weights, pastes, etc....only do so much but never truly solve the problem. Same with the dust issues. They have actually done us a HUGE favor by running the pad compounds that they do. That is why our 1521 has sold so well to owners of these cars. We give them equal to when cold or better stopping power without the excessive dust and noise and without the loss in stopping power that ceramic brakes have problems with. Our carbon, ceramic and kevlar mixture is very different from what GM and others have used and it why our sales have been so solid. GM isn't the only one that has this problem, we have "solved" this for several owners of every manufacturer out there, some are just worse than others whether domestic or foreign.

Thanks for posting, we appreciate it.

Mike Puskar Jr.

Sales and Technical support

CARBOTECH PERFORMANCE BRAKES

4031 DEARBORN PLACE NW

CONCORD, NC 28027

1-877-899-5024 (EST)
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 01:58 PM
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Having used the carbotech pads in the past. I won't say they are noisier - in fact any of you with exhaust mods won't even know.

Dust - absolutely. It can be easy to control.

but the 1521 pad is very aggressive - it will stop harder and it tolerates more heat. PUt another way I don't think I've ever had a set fade on me. Not sure it's possible sort of being so hot the wheel bearings are probably weeping. 3 laps at Sebring in august - no issue. Let me put it that way.

I had a set on my GTO also. They are fantastic pads - they do wear more on your rotors. they do make more dust.


Hope that helps anyone. I won't be tracking my G8 anytime soon - but if I was I'd be down for a group purchase.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 08:22 PM
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Been running the 1521's on my G8 for several years now and love them. Only had to do a few panic stops but I know they have saved me a time or two. Very well worth it.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matts88yj View Post
Been running the 1521's on my G8 for several years now and love them. Only had to do a few panic stops but I know they have saved me a time or two. Very well worth it.

Ditto!

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inov8rPPV View Post
CT response:
The noise problem is due to the friction material. All of the shims, weights, pastes, etc....only do so much but never truly solve the problem. Same with the dust issues. They have actually done us a HUGE favor by running the pad compounds that they do. That is why our 1521 has sold so well to owners of these cars. We give them equal to when cold or better stopping power without the excessive dust and noise and without the loss in stopping power that ceramic brakes have problems with. Our carbon, ceramic and kevlar mixture is very different from what GM and others have used and it why our sales have been so solid. GM isn't the only one that has this problem, we have "solved" this for several owners of every manufacturer out there, some are just worse than others whether domestic or foreign.

Thanks for posting, we appreciate it.

Mike Puskar Jr.

Sales and Technical support

CARBOTECH PERFORMANCE BRAKES

4031 DEARBORN PLACE NW

CONCORD, NC 28027

1-877-899-5024 (EST)
Very interesting. No roller skates required.

Forum discount price?

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 06:47 AM
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I ran carbotechs for 3 or 4 years on my autocross truck (C5 vette brake swap) and loved them. They were the AX6 compound, not sure how they compare to the 1521's. I ran them year round in Canada and they always bit hard, even when it was -20C outside. They dusted but rarely made any noise.

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 07:28 AM
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After doing a fair amount of research I installed carbotech 1521's with centric rotors several years ago, and got 65k-70k ish miles out of them, they wore very well, and fine on the rotors (relativity smooth wear until the very end of life) These pads were better than the hawk pads (forget spec but blue box) I took off in every way. (grip, wear, dust but barely) Very solid pad.

I'm in the process of upgrading my front brakes and I'm going to give the stock ACdelco pads HP1000 compound a go and see if they are ok, since I'm not really worried about dust so much but more stopping. I can report back in a month or so. But if I really don't like the ACDelco pad (noise, drone, whatever) these are definitely at the top of the list of what I would buy. Note: ACdelco pads (F) $100 bucks vs $170 for the carbotechs 1521's.

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rentedmule View Post
I ran carbotechs for 3 or 4 years on my autocross truck (C5 vette brake swap) and loved them. They were the AX6 compound, not sure how they compare to the 1521's. I ran them year round in Canada and they always bit hard, even when it was -20C outside. They dusted but rarely made any noise.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMpowered View Post
After doing a fair amount of research I installed carbotech 1521's with centric rotors several years ago, and got 65k-70k ish miles out of them, they wore very well, and fine on the rotors (relativity smooth wear until the very end of life) These pads were better than the hawk pads (forget spec but blue box) I took off in every way. (grip, wear, dust but barely) Very solid pad.

I'm in the process of upgrading my front brakes and I'm going to give the stock ACdelco pads HP1000 compound a go and see if they are ok, since I'm not really worried about dust so much but more stopping. I can report back in a month or so. But if I really don't like the ACDelco pad (noise, drone, whatever) these are definitely at the top of the list of what I would buy. Note: ACdelco pads (F) $100 bucks vs $170 for the carbotechs 1521's.
From what I've been reading, I would stick with the Carbotech 1521 pads if you plan on going OEM ACDelco Brembo pads.

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inov8rPPV View Post

Wanted to confirm cost for the 1521 spec pads for CT1351 FMSI/caliper fitment as used on 2008 Pontiac G8. Some comments I've read suggest they cost $300+....ouch!!!

The CT1351-1521 retail for $208. We do offer club and forum discounts if you buy directly from us. We would have to make these, 2-3 days to have them ready to ship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GXP25 View Post
Very interesting. No roller skates required.

Forum discount price?
I'm just passing along what he offered--individual inquiry or someone representing G8 Forum (moderator) should reach out and get the details on the pricing deal.

As for roller skates, pretty sure you know G8 (GXP) never used pad dampers, but if someone wanted to use D1474/CT1474, it's not going to be the roller skate version anyway.

Bill Harper
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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Questions here are perfectly welcome, and many like/trust personal feedback over the "corporate official line"--just be aware that the CarboTech web presence offers a wealth of information, some of which would suggest that fans of the "base" 1521/Bobcat pad spec are using them in ways that CT does not recommend.

There are valid reasons for the range of pad specs--it's not just about selling more/pricier product. Sure, there are situations where someone gets involved in auto-x or even an HPDE on a road course that they may only do "once"--CT wants the public/customers to understand why. For me, to attain proper brake response if running "off road" frequently, it's important to heed the advice of the vendor.

Spend some time looking at the info - examples:
https://ctbrakes.com/brakeanswers/

https://ctbrakes.com/brakeanswers/friction-compounds/

https://ctbrakes.com/choosingcompounds/

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:38 AM
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I hear you gxp25, but I want to see if the oe pad will give me issue before I jump ship, they might be fine, who knows. I don't think many people have experience with them on the 345mm brembo option cts vsport calipers. Besides they are already sitting in my garage, so I'll give it a go

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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by inov8rPPV View Post
As for roller skates, pretty sure you know G8 (GXP) never used pad dampers, but if someone wanted to use D1474/CT1474, it's not going to be the roller skate version anyway.
Correct.

I was just making a generalization with respect to the brake pad weights.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMpowered View Post
I hear you gxp25, but I want to see if the oe pad will give me issue before I jump ship, they might be fine, who knows. I don't think many people have experience with them on the 345mm brembo option cts vsport calipers. Besides they are already sitting in my garage, so I'll give it a go
And the "spec" pad callout for the 345 caliper from Alpha (using PPV 345 rotor on Zeta/G8) is D1474 with the small dampers, although the caliper can use D1001, which has no dampers.

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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 09:13 AM
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I've always wanted no damper pads to maximize wheel fitment options.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by GMpowered View Post
I hear you gxp25, but I want to see if the oe pad will give me issue before I jump ship, they might be fine, who knows. I don't think many people have experience with them on the 345mm brembo option cts vsport calipers. Besides they are already sitting in my garage, so I'll give it a go
It never hurts to experiment I guess.

I went from OEM to a myriad of different pads (Raybestos EHT1050, Monroe CX1001 (front 4 piston ceramic) and Monroe CX1053 (rear 4 piston ceramic), and maybe another that I'm not listing) and eventually went back to the OEM pads (new ACDelco/Brembo pads and rotors) due to the lack of proper braking. I found myself in a situation where I truly needed the brakes to work well and they underperformed. Thankfully an accident didn't occur. I can overlook brake dust as long as the vehicle stops the way I want it to stop, which is why I went back to OEM.

Lately, however, the OEM pads haven't been performing the way I expect them to. I'm not sure if it's the old rubber lines, the pads, or a combination of it all. I did replace the fluid a couple of months ago and performed the ABS flush with a Tech 2.

If the Carbotech CT1001-1521 (front 4 piston Brembo) pads provide 80% less dust than OEM and perform equally or better and has a good initial bite, then I may go ahead and replace the OEM ones I have. Or, I may even go Carbotech CT1405-1521 (front 6 piston Brembo) when I get around to that swap.

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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by inov8rPPV View Post
Also, the lookup for Brembo pads (CT1001 & CT1001A) suggests there's a different spec for Cadillac CTS-V (2004-2007) and Pontiac G8 GXP (2009). OEM pads are listed as the same, rotors are the same thickness, but the CT listing indicates that CT1001A is about 0.040" thicker (pad material or pad plate?). What is correct for each application?

CT Response:
Hey Bill,

The CT1351-1521 retail for $208. We do offer club and forum discounts if you buy directly from us. We would have to make these, 2-3 days to have them ready to ship.

My listings show the same 4 pot Brembo, the CT1001 for both the CTS-V (2004 edition, the newer CTS-V has a 6 piston caliper) and the GXP. If you're looking for the 1521 in that pad shape, they retail for $170 and are in stock.

Do you need any rear pads?

Mike Jr.
He never truly addresses the reason for the CT1001 and CT1001A on their website. I guess we'll stick with CT1001.

Quote:
We also stock the 6 pot iron rotor version for them all (CTS-V, C7 and Camaro), the CT1405 front and CT1718 rear. Some of the Camaro's and the CTS-V use the CT1053 in the rear, which we also stock.
It's interesting to note that the second generation CTS-V (6 piston Brembo front), 2012-2015 Camaro ZL1 (6 piston Brembo front), and fifth generation Camaro SS (4 piston Brembo front) all use CT1053 for their rear 4 piston Brembo calipers. While the first generation CTS-V (4 piston Brembo front) uses CT592 for their rear 4 piston Brembo calipers. At least this is what I'm seeing on Carbotech's website.

Is there a reason for this? As some of us know, the main difference between the first generation CTS-V Brembo rear calipers vs. the others' rear calipers has to do with the notches on the caliper ears.

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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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D592 & D1053 are a common pad plate/caliper fitment, different friction material thickness specs.

Just as D1001 for front on CTS-V & GXP has evolved to D1474, which can be back-fitted to the V & GXP calipers, and other vehicles, such as 94-96 Impala SS compared to Caprice--D52 on Caprice, D614 on Impala SS, yet the caliper on each model accepts both pad specs.

https://www.hawkperformance.com/pads/hb194y-570

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...433649&jsn=634

14.6mm = 0.574"

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by inov8rPPV View Post
D592 & D1053 are a common pad plate/caliper fitment, different friction material thickness specs.

Just as D1001 for front on CTS-V & GXP has evolved to D1474, which can be back-fitted to the V & GXP calipers, and other vehicles, such as 94-96 Impala SS compared to Caprice--D52 on Caprice, D614 on Impala SS, yet the caliper on each model accepts both pad specs.

https://www.hawkperformance.com/pads/hb194y-570

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...433649&jsn=634

14.6mm = 0.574"
So would you say CT1053-1521 and CT592-1521 are different but can be applied to all of the rear 4 piston Brembo calipers used on these vehicles?

However, if D1474 is the evolution of D1001, and "[t]he noise problem is due to the friction material. All of the shims, weights, pastes, etc....only do so much but never truly solve the problem... GM isn't the only one that has this problem, we have "solved" this for several owners of every manufacturer out there," then why are they offering two different designs (one includes small weights)?

CT1001-1521:



CT1474-1521:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg CT1001-1521.jpg (126.6 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg CT1474-1521.jpg (41.8 KB, 34 views)

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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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As far as D1053 vs D592, I don't have a better response than my previous--the one thing I've noted is that it appears to me that the CT website has changed considerably in the past 10 days, and the look-up format and info is displayed very differently compared to my last access of the site.

Better to seek answers from Mike Jr at CT.

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