[bluegoat06]

And whether the Honeycomb is needed is totally up to you. the concept is clear enough in the pictures i posted with the smoke inside the boxes blowing through a fan, plus there is also hard data that shows what airflow does with and without the screen in cars where people are using the same MAF using HPT/EFI logs. Totally up to people to believe what they read or have been told.

This is not an E38 pcm, but the concept still applies, EFI Logs

Ls1 MAF without screen vs LS7 MAF without screen, same car, the biggest jagged out reading is the LS1 MAF without the screen


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Same car as above with the same LS7 MAF, with and without screen, upper reading is without screen, lower reading with screen.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The car runs without screen, whether you know, or have been told what the MAF is really doing, is totally up to you to find out, or to believe what it might be doing. i'll go for the smoothest flow i can see, it helps mpg and performance at the same time, as the tune is optimized for a smooth airflow pattern, it'll run without the screen, but i bet tuning would be easier on a car with the smoothest airflow.

It's easy to see why the tune would also change if you put the screen on.

Also like it has been mentioned, MAF location is key, and the reason vettes run without a screen from the factory.

 

[bluesidan]

Thank you bluegoat, guess I will just swap the black and pink on the OEM harness. I didn't like the extra wire under the hood anyway, to bad I bought all the HSRK parts and the not so cheap crimpers already...

 

[bluegoat06]

No problem dude, glad to be able to help. I couldn't remove the harness cover to unplug the wires, so i just bought the dang cable adapter, either way will work.

After this, i'm planning to ping Rick C for one of his ported intakes, but i also have a suspension lift to buy and install along with with some rock sliders in my other toy , how can i save money for the cam, dang it

 

[JCMG8]

yes, thanks for posting the data. I often post links which I suspect are seldom bothered with. And good to hear the card MAF is good to go with the IAT sensor. While I have fabbed a few HSRK's, have done so with the objective of place close to MAF and minimal mass to provide fast / accurate measurement to the ecm.

 

[bluegoat06]

No problem.

First batch of parts showed up at my door already, LS3 card, the spectre 4" maf housing and the 4" rubber coupler.
Now waiting for the Blox 4" VS and the 100mm honeycomb.

 

[bluegoat06]

Found some interesting data points that i'll be using in my tune.
I'll start out with the MAF table out of a 2011 Camaro since they use the same LS3 MAF I have, not sure the CAI piping is 4" on those cars, but the intake style is an elbow like in our application. Some people have used the 2008 LS3 Vette MAF table to start, I feel the Camaro elbow matches my config better, so i'll start there, and tune the MAF as always to match the mods I have.

2nd and most interesting point, the IAT ohms resistance in the LS3/LS7 MAF is completely different from the one we have in the G8's from the factory. So running the LS3 IAT with the G8 IAT ohms resistance table, could create a little problem , hopefully some would understand what I mean, I've opened a thread in HPT to verify, i'm just anal about the details , I've just updated the IAT resistance (axis only since the temp are the same across models) to match the ones in the LS3/LS7 stable mates in my tune already. The difference in resiatance can be seeing in the following excel table. IAT is directly related to fueling and timing, better match what the IAT is supposed to be measuring with the LS3/LS7 card.

2009 G8GT		2011 Camaro		2010 Camaro		2008 Corvette LS3	2010 Z06	
Ohms	Temp	Diff 	Ohms	Temp		Ohms	Temp		Ohms	Temp		Ohms	Temp
48	302	-10	58	302		58	302		58	302		58	302
60	284	-12	72	284		72	284		72	284		72	284
78	266	-12	90	266		90	266		90	266		90	266
101	248	-12	113	248		113	248		113	248		113	248
133	230	-11	144	230		144	230		144	230		144	230
178	212	-8	186	212		186	212		186	212		186	212
242	194	-1	243	194		243	194		243	194		243	194
284	185	5	279	185		279	185		279	185		279	185
334	176	13	321	176		321	176		321	176		321	176
395	167	24	371	167		371	167		371	167		371	167
469	158	38	431	158		431	158		431	158		431	158
559	149	57	502	149		502	149		502	149		502	149
671	140	84	587	140		587	140		587	140		587	140
809	131	120	689	131		689	131		689	131		689	131
980	122	167	813	122		813	122		813	122		813	122
1,195	113	231	964	113		964	113		964	113		964	113
1,465	104	317	1,148	104		1,148	104		1,148	104		1,148	104
1,806	95	432	1,374	95		1,374	95		1,374	95		1,374	95
2,240	86	587	1,653	86		1,653	86		1,653	86		1,653	86
2,795	77	795	2,000	77		2,000	77		2,000	77		2,000	77
3,511	68	1078	2,433	68		2,433	68		2,433	68		2,433	68
4,441	59	1465	2,976	59		2,976	59		2,976	59		2,976	59
5,658	50	1995	3,663	50		3,663	50		3,663	50		3,663	50
7,263	41	2727	4,536	41		4,536	41		4,536	41		4,536	41
9,399	32	3747	5,652	32		5,652	32		5,652	32		5,652	32
12,261	23	5166	7,095	23		7,095	23		7,095	23		7,095	23
16,120	14	7151	8,969	14		8,969	14		8,969	14		8,969	14
21,371	5	9951	11,420	5		11,420	5		11,420	5		11,420	5
28,583	-4	13933	14,650	-4		14,650	-4		14,650	-4		14,650	-4
38,583	-13	19643	18,940	-13		18,940	-13		18,940	-13		18,940	-13
52,594	-22	27884	24,710	-22		24,710	-22		24,710	-22		24,710	-22
72,438	-31	39888	32,550	-31		32,550	-31		32,550	-31		32,550	-31
100,866	-40	57546	43,320	-40		43,320	-40		43,320	-40		43,320	-40

Easily changed with Hptuners like this (just edit the resistance axis cols, leave the temp alone)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[bluegoat06]

Tune is done, at least the starting point, I'll have some work to do to model the new MAF transfer table, piece of cake, now waiting for the VS and Honeycomb, which should be at my door by Friday. This seems easier than i thought, so hopefully it would remain like that

 

[G8-4-Speed]

The honeycomb makes a big difference when there is a elbow before the MAF. The only one that has needed it so far is a Procharger setup. It helps mainly with low speed driving when locking the converter on stalled setups. Just like you showed in you scan pictures above, the MAF will jump around at low speeds and even with VE tuned, it can cause surging from 1000-1800 while driving under light throttle. Most times I have not had any issues when not using a screen. It helps but in some don't want to risk it coming loose if they don't glue it right.

Same with the IAT table, it is off 20 degrees during normal driving if you don't re-scale the table.

 

[fixem2]

Rick,
What are your thoughts on the 4" velocity stack over the rotofab original?

 

[bluegoat06]

The honeycomb makes a big difference when there is a elbow before the MAF. The only one that has needed it so far is a Procharger setup. It helps mainly with low speed driving when locking the converter on stalled setups. Just like you showed in you scan pictures above, the MAF will jump around at low speeds and even with VE tuned, it can cause surging from 1000-1800 while driving under light throttle. Most times I have not had any issues when not using a screen. It helps but in some don't want to risk it coming loose if they don't glue it right.

Same with the IAT table, it is off 20 degrees during normal driving if you don't re-scale the table.

I'm waiting to have the screen in my hands to see if i'll be using glue, jb weld, or electric tape. In my case, i'm planning to push it all the way inside the housing so it sits flush, but again, just thoughts, i don't even know how it looks like yet

Have you have any issues with the angle of the card at the time of install ? since i'm starting fresh, i'll probably try to get the reading filament at the same angle the stocker sits, but then again, this is not a Camaro, i may try to go do the Chevy dealer to take a look at the angle of the MAF connector, and that would me give a general idea about it.

 

[bluegoat06]

This is a picture I found from a member here, (Hayabusa), I don't think this is the 6x4 VS version because the opening where the filter sits is smaller, or perhaps the angle of the pic make it appear smaller, In any case, you'll get the idea, i'll take pics when mine arrives anyways.

 

[AEMG8GT]

Im definitely ready to see the results. I have a 4in maf and ls7 card but no honeycomb screen. Ive not installed them yet as im waiting for my vacation in a week to go to my tuner. If the results are that much better Ill order one and wait for someone to figure out the best way to keep it in. I have an AFE intake which is elbow same as Rotofab.

 

[hayabusa160]

This is a picture I found from a member here, (Hayabusa), I don't think this is the 6x4 VS version because the opening where the filter sits is smaller, or perhaps the angle of the pic make it appear smaller, In any case, you'll get the idea, i'll take pics when mine arrives anyways.

that stack is the 6x4 version. i just got the reckart 90mm maf housing i also got a maf screen for it. i figure it will help because the short path the vcm intake makes.

 

[brad02ss]

Thanks for working on this everyone, I'm about to get some pretty good comparisons going. I may be going to the drag strip in the next couple of weeks with my current setup, then will add an HSRK, underdrive pulley and Rick's intake (hopefully he can get it to me in time) and the 6x4 velocity stack to my Roto-Fab, will dyno that July 5, in similar weather to my dyno tuning last year, then while still on the dyno will swap to a Vararam and the LS7 MAF sensor with 4" housing and straightener so we'll have those comparison dyno numbers, then July 12 will have updated 1/4 mile numbers. Will keep y'all posted. Looking for high 12's, close to 400rwhp, and taking out a couple friends with Mustangs since they provoked all of the above with their trash talking lol.

 

[bluegoat06]

Now waiting on the honeycomb screen, hopefully I'll get it today, if not i'll be by Monday, dang it.

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App

 

[NicD]

I have yet to see a problem on these cars with this MAF/CAI setup without the honeycomb element. The air just isn't that turbulent in this configuration to cause any surges or transients that the ECM's smoothing algorithms have a problem with, especially if you are using the "good" MAF sensor and not the "weaker" single letter designation sensor.

Now that's not to say you aren't going to see a slightly smoother signal when zoomed in on the MAF frequency but it really has no effect, and in that case I say why add a potential restriction if it's not causing a problem. GM came to this same conclusion back in 01 with the Z06.

 

[bluegoat06]

Thanks for the info Nic, another interesting point, that i'm sure more than one person would probably ask, How to tell if you have the "weaker" MAF. It was the first thing i did check when i got the new MAF, mine reads K24, so i did receive one of the good ones.

I'll quote from Camaro5

GM uses two supplier for Camaro SS MAF sensors. The simple explanation is that "weak" sensors from one of the suppliers are not showing the same resistance levels as the "strong" sensors from the other. Both work fine when the car remains stock but when additional airflow is introduced the "weak" sensor can start to become a problem.



The MAF sensors that have been identified as "weak" read 1560-1670HZ at idle with the A/C off while a "strong" MAF reads at 1800MHZ. During on road, light throttle input the MHZ are slow and weak in response to throttle changes which causes hesitation, throttle lag, and poor driveability. At wide open throttle the "weak" MAF shows 120-170MHZ lower than the 8600MHZ the "strong" MAF sensors will show on the same car. Depending on what intake modifications are made the fuel trim with a "weak" MAF can range from -25% on the high end to -3% with just a simple aftermarket panel replacement filter. Pull the "weak" sensor and install a "strong" sensor and within seconds fuel trim is back to 0% and MHZ are back to 1800+. This will instantly change the personality of a car as was demonstrated in this post on Camaro5dotcom.





How can I tell if my MAF is "weak" or "strong"?



It is very simple. Remove the MAF sensor from your intake tube and take a look at the code inside the indented window. Any single letter MAF is "weak" and any MAF that features a letter followed by a number like the one in the picture below is "strong".



Uploaded with ImageShack.us







Setting things straight



There are two points of confusion that seem to constantly come up when this topic is discussed:



1) This is a hardware issue with the MAF sensor and not a tune issue. The "weak" MAF needs to be replaced and the issue can not be corrected with a tune.



2) The "weak" sensors function just fine and are within OEM tolerances when the car remains in the stock configuration. Once additional air flow is introduced due to modifications is when problems arise. Because of that it is not something that GM will replace under warranty.

 

[BLKG8]

If you have the weak sensor and want to get the strong sensor you can just swap them and don't need to re-tune? Where and how do you order to ensure your getting the strong one and not another weak one? I'm check which one I have tomorrow!

 

[bluegoat06]

Doubt you'll have to retune unless something really crazy was done to try to correct for the issue the weak MAF causes, which according to the folks at CAmaro5, cannot be corrected with tuning. Just change the MAF if you have the weak one.

 

[bluegoat06]

The Honeycomb didn't arrive yesterday, but I wanted to install the MAF either way and see what's up.

Stock View

First thing, the Blox VS is shorter than the Rotofab by 2" and change, and it's not supported by screws like in the original Roto setup. I used a 3/8 fuel hose to make a little support, not perfect, but it'll work fine, I just didn't want the intake coupler to be rubbing against the edge of the Roto support.

The MAF housing is also probably .5" shorter, I didn't take exact measurements, but the Blox VS won't connect safely to the MAF housing. I'll order Spectre 9722, 2" long, 4" diameter intake pipe, I was thinking to use the 9709 which is 4" long, but I think i'll have to cut at least 1" out of that one, so hopefully the 2" long will fit the bill.

The hump past the MAF in the original configuration works, you just have to remove the internal rubber reducer that comes with it, I had to use the Roto VS for now, while I wait for the honeycomb, and now the new intake pipe, the Roto VS fits, but the inlet is clearly smaller.